Japanese Rising Sun Flag, NOT MILITARY ISSUE!

[p-59a]

This flag is a little more than 3x5 feet. I had posted it on W-A and was schooled on Japanese flags by a member who as it happens wrote about the history of Japanese flags. So, what I learned is this is not a Japanese Army flag, only one real Army flag is known to exist. It is not a Japanese Navy flag, It is not marked as such. It is a civilian flag. Japanese on the home front made these to show their support. They were made in violation of military rules, but no one paid much attention to the rules. Japanese soldiers and sailors did have flags like this as personal flags as seen in photo's, but these were not military issue flags.

[p-59a]

Rope and sewing

[p-59a]

details

[p-59a]

The flag

[p-59a]

This is a detail from another site. This flag was a capture flag as stated. Note the rope and stitching is very much like the one I have. The site called this a Japanese Marine flag. It well may have been captured or taken off a Japanese Marine, but it is not a military issued flag. It is like mine, a civilian made flag carried as a personal flag by some Japaneses soldier. I do not know what the military rules were for soldiers carrying large flags like this and the guy who schooled me did not know either. Mine is a nice flag, but not every thing is as it seems. Word to the wise, do your due diligence before you buy.

[tiger41]

p-59a

I'm not an flag "expert" but have collected Japanese items long enough to agree with you that things are not always what they seem... while the flag is not a "navy rising sun flag" with the sun off-set (which I assume is what you wanted) I think its better than just a civilian home front flag. At 3' x 5' the size and base material make it too big & or heavy to be a personal flag (like the yoshigaki hinomaru) carried by a soldier/sailor. To me, its more like a small unit flag and the # 3 on the hoist end would indicate that. The flag is not a "multi piece" early construction but screen printed and machine stitched and more mid war construction. What jumps out to me is the "hoist" end of the flag, the end was not made to be tied to a rifle. This attachment style was made for a flag pole and/or hoist or lanyard connection. the stenciled numbers are a regimented system of identification.This is more then a personal flag or a home front flag. As to the design (rising sun) with the sun centered and while it is not a navy NLF flag.. it is a war flag and I have seen pictures of soldiers and sailors carrying personal rayed flags with a centered sun. Your question here is the flag "period" and it looks that way to me. There were also many "civilians" employed by the army and navy working as prison guards, construction workers, medical and many other positions. Many of these personnel ended up fighting and dying and I don't see much difference between them and a "soldier" if they are shooting at you.....they both were the enemy. Who knows "exactly" owned the flag but if the flag is period and a bring back then it seems it could be an issue flag of some type. You just may never know to exactly to who or where. And this is true about a lot of things brought home from the war.

tiger41

[Rod]

I have no actual clue as to what this flag is. Obviously made for hard use.

 

 

p-59a said "only one real Army flag is known to exist."

 

That would be the regimental flag with the purple fringed border of which there is just one original example left. Only infantry and cavalry received regimental flags, and then they only ever received one per regiment from the Emperor. There are many photos of regimental flags worn down to just the fringe.

 

Having said I have no clue what this flag may be and assuming it's pre 1945 I would investigate whether it's an Army Shipping Corps flag for a daihatsu landing barge, seems about the right size. Cool if it is.

[p-59a]

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/japane...rocade-647336/

This is the link to the history of Japanese flags I was talking about.

[p-59a]

When I see photo's like this I wonder about what the flag is. I never wondered before.

[vintageproductions]

I have no actual clue as to what this flag is. Obviously made for hard use.

 

 

That would be the regimental flag with the purple fringed border of which there is just one original example left. Only infantry and cavalry received regimental flags, and then they only ever received one per regiment from the Emperor. There are many photos of regimental flags worn down to just the fringe.

 

Having said I have no clue what this flag may be and assuming it's pre 1945 I would investigate whether it's an Army Shipping Corps flag for a daihatsu landing barge, seems about the right size. Cool if it is.

 

 

There are two complete Army Regimental flags at Yasakuni plus one in tatters. Plus there is another Army in a museum in Russia.

 

The only one that I believe there is one of is the Navy regimental flag, and it is on Griffin Militaria's page. No other Navy style has been found.

[p-59a]

This is taken from the link. I honestly don't know much about these.


"Army regimental flags are not “out there”. You will NEVER unearth one from the woodwork, so leave rising sun banners alone unless you love school flags for what they are and not for “what they could be”. Indeed, battleship flags may still be out there, but the army regimental standard was a totally different beast. For the navy what really counted was the ship, and flags were just expendable war supply. But for the Army, the attitude toward the flag was that the regiment existed to serve the standard, not the other way around. For them, the lives of all in the regiment were expendable, but the standard was irreplaceable. It had to be denied the enemy at all cost, so when the end came, and it was clear the regiment was doomed, the commander would torch the standard and bury the ashes before launching a Banzai attack.

In August 1945, all troops were ordered by the Supreme Command to burn their standards before capitulation. There was only one standard that survived this fate, which is now enshrined in the Yasukuni Shrine Museum. The destruction of all other banners were meticulously executed and recorded, all of them accounted for. Some fragments of burnt fabric and shards from shattered pole tops are known to have been brought home by soldiers, but that is as far as a collector’s luck could ever get you."

[p-59a]

This is what he has to say about the location of the sun disk on a flag and flags in general.

Misconception 1
If the rising sun is centered, it is supposedly an army flag, and if offset staff-ward, a navy banner. The truth is that, regardless of where the sun is, the vast majority of these flags are just civilian patriotic flags. Of which, the so-called army flags actually only saw use by the army for 4 years in the 19th century and were purely civilian renditions since the army stopped using them in 1874. On the other hand, some of what you put aside as navy may indeed be navy, provided they are a minimum of 1 meter in width (anything smaller is commercial civilian).

[p-59a]

What is left of the other banners. Houshou Relics

"What are known to remain from other banners are as follows

-Yasukuni Shrine also holds pieces of burnt remains from banners of the 57th, 86th and 143rd Infantry Regiments.

-An exhibit at the Himeji Camp of the Ground Self Defense Forces has pieces from the blood-soaked banner of the 39th Regiment

-An exhibit at the Izumo Camp features shreds from the 63rd Regiment banner

-A memorial to the war-dead located in Sasayama City in Hyogo, holds the pole-top and pieces of the fringe from the 70th Regiment banner

-The 14th Infantry Regiment cut up the fringes and allowed officers, and men of its companies to keep pieces of it.

-Fringes from the 4th Regiment banner are at Gokoku Shrine in Miyagi

-Fragments from the 43rd Rgt banner are at Gokoku Shrine in Tokushima

-Gotenba Camp exhibit has Pole-top and fragment from the 34th

-Ohmura Camp exhibit has pieces from the 146 Rgt banner

-Pole-top of the 117 Rgt, pieces from the 17th Rgt.banner and from the 223 Rgt. Are held at Camp Akita"

[tiger41]

I apologize....I thought we were discussing flags carried by Japanese troops in the field or aboard ship and such. What I am reading in the threads above is about "Regimental" flags which is something completely different. We might be mixing "apples and oranges" here. The period picture posted of troops with flags on poles, are flags carried in the field and not "regimental" flags but they are not "civilian" flags like yoshigaki hinomaru either. To think these types of flags are not available defy's the logic of period photos of US troops holding dozens of these flags both personal and military flags taken from the battlefield. These were not made by a Seabee" on a moments notice for a picture opportunity. For all intent and purposes "regimental" flags are RARE and no longer exist, however, like those in the picture "military" national flags, rank and unit flags and ship flags of all types were carried and displayed daily and are not particularly rare and every unit had them. Particularly in a ships flag locker, there would have been an abundance of them including flags of other countries made by the Japanese. If you are looking for a naval Rising Sun like those flown on smaller craft or carried by NLF troops (multi piece early construction) 4'x 6 to 8' size, they do show up (there was a beauty at the last SOS for sale). All we need to know is what we are looking for and what we are looking at. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

[Rod]

There are two complete Army Regimental flags at Yasakuni plus one in tatters. Plus there is another Army in a museum in Russia.

 

The only one that I believe there is one of is the Navy regimental flag, and it is on Griffin Militaria's page. No other Navy style has been found.

 

Thanks for "raising" the other two Regimental flags vintageproductions, they're definitely of interest to me.

 

Thus far I'm only aware that the 321st Infantry Regiment's flag survived the war after being hidden, contrary to orders to burn it along with every other Japanese Army regiment's flag. I'd never heard there is another flag in the Yasukuni Shrine till now. Nice! Any idea which regiment it is?

 

The 321st I.R. was in the 230th Division which was activated in Tokyo on May 23, 1945. Its late date and a scant 3 months service is no doubt why the flag remains pristine.

 

I have read rumours of a flag in Russia. It wouldn't surprise me given the Soviet walk-over of Manchuria in August 1945, but never anything tangible like a photo or location to go on.

 

Surprised to learn there's a Navy regimental flag as I was unaware the Navy had regiments. Infantry ones? Very aware of the NLF, etc. but thought they operated in company to battalion sized units only. Then again as I like to say, I don't know anything about the Imperial Japanese Navy.

 

The Army and Navy remained two separate and distinct animals that shared little.

 

Thanks again!

 

What is left of the other banners. Houshou Relics

 

"What are known to remain from other banners are as follows

 

-Yasukuni Shrine also holds pieces of burnt remains from banners of the 57th, 86th and 143rd Infantry Regiments.

 

-An exhibit at the Himeji Camp of the Ground Self Defense Forces has pieces from the blood-soaked banner of the 39th Regiment

 

-An exhibit at the Izumo Camp features shreds from the 63rd Regiment banner

 

-A memorial to the war-dead located in Sasayama City in Hyogo, holds the pole-top and pieces of the fringe from the 70th Regiment banner

 

-The 14th Infantry Regiment cut up the fringes and allowed officers, and men of its companies to keep pieces of it.

 

-Fringes from the 4th Regiment banner are at Gokoku Shrine in Miyagi

 

-Fragments from the 43rd Rgt banner are at Gokoku Shrine in Tokushima

 

-Gotenba Camp exhibit has Pole-top and fragment from the 34th

 

-Ohmura Camp exhibit has pieces from the 146 Rgt banner

 

-Pole-top of the 117 Rgt, pieces from the 17th Rgt.banner and from the 223 Rgt. Are held at Camp Akita"

 

Great list p-59a, I love finding this stuff out. Thanks so much!

[p-59a]

So the question the author could not answer and I have no idea about is this....Did the IJA have any rules or regulations on what individual soldiers could carry in the way of personal flags? I understand any personal flag like the hinomaru is not a military issued flag but I have seen photo's of IJA soldiers with large rayed flags like mine tied to their rifles. I assume these are "civilian" flags from home. I'm guessing soldiers had no limitations imposed on them from the chain of command. If flags like mine are not "civilian" and they are not authorized like the regimental banners then what are they?

[tiger41]

Perhaps I could suggest you should get a copy of Dr. Mike Bortner's book "Imperial Japanese Good Luck Flags and Thousand Stitch Belts" which explains a lot about the personal flags and some about "military" flags. I think you would find Chapter 16 interesting along with period pictures of soldiers holding rising sun flags with centered sun.The navy had a system of flags from national flags, rising sun flags, rank flags, command flags, flags of different nations, each in about five different sizes. The smallest (sizes are approximate) 1.5' x 2' , 3' x 5', 5' x 8', 8'x 10" and 10' x 16' to be used i various locations. As naval flags they were made heavy materials to withstand the weather and were multi piece construction. Later made flags began to used printed designs. They were used both on ship and ashore...they had rope lanyards to a fix to flag poles and or lines on ships. These flags have also at one time had a paper quartermaster's label tacked sewn to one corner of the flag. Often only the threads remain on the flag. In the late 1970's I purchased 10 plus flags from a vets wife who brought them home from the Philippines...4 or 5 of the flags were 2.5" x 3" cotton cloth national flags with just a 1" red outline of the sun in the center of the flag. Within the outline was a red 8 point compass star sew on. The kanji printed on one side of the flag with a 4 digit sequential numbers was a registration number that indicated it was approved and was for (as I recall) a reserve unit.You won't find these flags in any book but they existed. My point being that regardless of regulations and rules, a lot of things were done and we don't always know the answers to all of them. I assume the army had some type of similar system since they also had similar flag system as the navy both in size and number. Your flag has a"serial" type number and what I would think is a size number also. Exactly what it was for I can't say for sure but based on the material, size and ropes on the hoist end..Your flag is likely one of many different flags carried by the military or by other para military groups who served in combat areas. While it would help to know exactly where it was acquired, the flag itself tells us something... I doubt it was intended to hang from a rifle like a "yoshigaki hinomaru"....my opinion. Regardless of what I say or think, at some point you must process the info and decide for yourself. I don't think I would be too quick to cast it off as some civilian flag unless you find a flag that you really are looking for. This is a good discussion and thanks for showing the flag.

[p-59a]

Most times the things I buy are things I know nothing about. I buy them to learn about them. That is why I belong to sites like this. I agree not everything is known about everything, but when it comes to WW2 Japanese flags I found allot of incorrect information and opinions on the web. I do not doubt someone brought this home as a war trophy. Right now for me this would be no different that the ETO vet who brought home a German street banner or window display flag. Those are WW2 German flags, just not military or state issue flags. They are still war trophy's. I think the lack of interest in flags like this for decades resulted in information being lost over time. The fact Japan changed the way it spells things makes research hard. That along with the fire bombing of main land Japan destroyed much of the information on many things. As a result opinions filled the void left by the lack of facts. You may be correct about what you think about this flag or you may be incorrect. I do not know, but over time with the addition of information by other collectors with known history's of flags like this I am sure a better picture can be painted.

[p-59a]

I'm bringing this back to the top.

[Gear Fanatic]

I have been reading through this thread and I thought I had a decent understanding of Japanese flags, oh but no, I have absolutely no idea of the realm of Japanese flags…

[p-59a]

4 hours ago, Gear Fanatic said:

I have been reading through this thread and I thought I had a decent understanding of Japanese flags, oh but no, I have absolutely no idea of the realm of Japanese flags…

HAHAHAHA! Yup!!!!

[Gear Fanatic]

Yah I’m gonna stick to my simple U.S. stuff 🥲