Opinions on TR buckle collecting

[wyomingboy]

So I collected Third Reich items about twenty years ago but was tired of getting burned with fakes. This is frequently said by current and former collectors and obviously a topic we all are conscious of.

 

I have been thinking about starting to collect again. When I was in elementary school a fellow student brought in a huge collection of TR buckles his uncle had liberated during the war. He would not sell the collection (and am sure it is long gone) but the topic really intrigued me. So I have thought about returning to TR collecting by working on a high quality collection of original buckles purchased from better dealers.

 

While SS buckles are an obvious a target for faking, it seems like much of the rest of the buckle world seems to be fairly safe. Also, the documentation on makers marks has come light years and that really helps in evaluating items.

 

So my question to all is whether buckles represent a good place to resume collecting. Thanks!

[Brig]

Buckles are also reproduced and have been since the 60s...many for reenactors, but after decades the old ones have developed patina, as well. As with anything, I think you just have to do your homework, tread lightly and be sure you know what you're buying. No matter what you collect TR-related, it's always going to be a minefield compared to most other fields. Even common portraits and single place ribbon bars are reproduced these days

 

I, too, grew tired of fakes and long ago made the switch to USMC, however every now and then I get the urge to dabble and pick up a piece or two. I have found now that I am more mature, and an experienced collector of militaria, that I have grown much more skeptical, particularly of the seemingly great deals I would have pounced on in my younger days without vetting the piece properly first, and I am much more inclined to do my homework before pulling the trigger. I also find that, where I was burned a bunch of times when I was young and eager (coughdumbcough), I have not been burned in recent years with my TR pickups.

 

Just last week I found an SS-FM pin, but looked at probably 100 real and fake examples before I pulled the trigger. I also stumbled on an old Heer belt buckle I did not pick up because I couldn't find anything on the design...turns out it was a good call, it was a repro from the 60s that had naturally aged.

 

End of the day, if you like it, don't let the fakes keep you away from it, just do your research and be certain before you buy, so you don't feel the sting of a burn.

[wyomingboy]

Thanks and I agree. I would have loved to have kept collecting TR back in the day but I found that I was getting stung just enough, on a limited budget, that I could not go on. I have generally trusted better dealers but was stung on a bad medal bar a few years ago and that made me savvy that no one is an expert on everything and thus one can get tagged too easily.

[Brig]

Dealers make mistakes, good ones offer solid return policies. There's a general consensus in the ancient antiquities collecting community that a good dealer should offer a lifetime guarantee or he's not worth buying from...this isn't a bad policy for TR dealers, as well.

 

Another problem with TR can be the egos. A lot of guys won't say anything, and when they do it's just 'good' or 'fake'. Don't get me wrong, I am a big believer in doing your own research, but finding a thread of educational value with details on some other boards is extremely difficult as the good/fake responses have dominated the internet for years. If you are going to collect a field, invest in good reference books. But it sucks when you stumble on a piece you don't collect and the responses are akin to "either trust my expertise when I say fake or invest on a hundred dollar book you'll only use once"

 

Now, as with all fields, each subfield seems to have its own culture, with some being very helpful and others full of ego and self-proclaimed experts. Buckle enthusiasts don't tend to carry the ego of, say, helmet nuts

[wyomingboy]

I agree. The lifetime guarantee has been slow to be accepted in military whereas other areas have long ago offered this. The better dealers assuredly stand behind their goods and I am firm believer in buying from a reputable dealer than rolling the dice on an auction or a flea market fly by night.

To me the challenge is the issue of quality (we all want perfect examples) vs. age/use. I have always said that a piece in excellent condition is always a bargain because it will never have to apologize for itself. BUT with TR, it makes one nervous because one expects items from a captured enemy to be less than perfect. So how come there are so many buckles with RZM tags still attached?

[Brig]

I like a little honest use to my stuff...not bouncing around in a footlocker for a century, but as would have been worn. Unissued stuff lacks the history of the stuff that was worn.

[wyomingboy]

agreed but what is acceptable wear? I have collected period antique furniture for many years and i want to see wear and tear on a 200 year old piece....so what would be acceptable on TR. Mean that really honestly as I have seen the phrase "salty" used and that seems to imply a piece that is rusty which to my to my mind is step beyond the patna that we look for. I have been eyeballing an SS buckle for a bit that has a dent but looks to be100% and is from a reputable dealer. But is the dent fatal?

[John4022]

I'll share my 3 SS buckles that have in my opinion "acceptable wear". I recommend collecting what makes you happy. If the dent in the buckle you are interested doesn't bother you than go for it. Personally, a minor dent in a buckle wouldn't bother me, especially on a SS buckle. Hope this helps and I look forward seeing your buckle collection begin!

[John4022]

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[John4022]

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[wyomingboy]

thanks...and those are great buckles and illustrate my sense of what reasonable wear is. Preciate that illustration. I agree that you collect what you should like and your counsel is quite spot on. Years ago when I first started collecting, I purchased TR items because of what fellow collectors said I should collect. I never had the fire and I was quick to sell the items. So much for collector peer pressure.

 

I would ask the question is whether the question of quality or rarity or condition or ownership drives ones interest. Thus will a well made buckle that is in superb condition will trump a buckle in poor condition with a name attached to it? Some years ago, one of the antiques trade papers illustrated a rather hideous chamber pot which everyone agreed...while being 18th century....was a perfect example of a rather ugly item. The value was set and then they pulled the quick reveal....it belonged to Benjamin Franklin. At that moment, there was an amazing transformation as the chamber pot went from $1500 to $10k (and this was a long time ago). So how does that change or transform an item. This obviously is an extreme example but I have seen premium prices asked for items that may have an association even if the item is in poor shape. thoughts?

[DocCollector1441]

I would be more likely to purchase an item that I could verify belonged to a person, in particular a person with significant historical value, even if the condition of the item is worse than what is typically found on the market; but for me to purchase an item that is attributed to a person, I have to feel like the proof of ownership is beyond a reasonable doubt. Nothing stops someone from taking any regular Heer belt buckle and going: "ULTRA RARE UBER COOL NAZI BELT BUCKLE OF KURT KNISPEL. DEFINITELY WORN WHILE SLAYING T34S!!!!!!!!" It was the USMF that taught me as a young collector to buy the item and not the story, unless the story could be verified. In the case of buckles, Germans generally did not put their names or even Wehrnummer on their belt buckles, so I would skeptical of any attributed buckle.

[Brig]

In the case of TR stuff, names don't tend to increase the value unless it's a significant name or documented group. German personnel records were either destroyed and/or not available to the layman for research like US records are.

 

And I agree on the acceptable wear of above buckles...

 

Quality over quantity, sure, but when you're focused on a narrow area like buckles, you still certainly want to pick up a good example of common Heer, Luftwaffe, etc