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Type 38 Rifle Variation


SARGE
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Gents,

This is a Type 38 Japanese Army rifle variation made at the Tokyo/Kokura Arsenal. The Japanese Army introduced this redesign of the Type 30 rifle in 1906 to address various shortcomings found with the Type 30 rifle during the Russo-Japanese War. Interestingly, the redesign was carried out by Major Kijiro Nambu (of the Nambu pistol fame) and resulted in a better service rifle that served throughout WWII.

This particular rifle is of standard design except for the markings found on the receiver. A number of these Type 38 rifles will be found with double concentric circles stamped on the top of the receiver instead of the chrysanthemum used by the military. It is believed by some collectors that this insignia indicates the rifle was intended for Police use. These same round circles will be seen as a vehicle sign on the back of some troop trucks but there is no period Japanese documentation as to the meaning of this insignia. This particular rifle was accepted for military use as evidenced by the chrysanthemum on the receiver. In this case the mum has been over-stamped with the concentric circles which seems to indicate this particular rifle was transferred from the military to the police or other organization using the concentric circle insignia. Note that the mum has not been ground off or defaced in any way.

Anyone with any information on who used these rifles with the concentric circle insignia?

 

Jap 38 pol rifle.JPG

Jap 38 pol rifle action.JPG

Jap 38 pol rifle dust cover.JPG

Jap 38 pol stock mark.JPG

Jap 38 concentric circles.JPG

Jap 38 pol chamber mark.JPG

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A few notes concerning the double circle marked Type 38 rifles:

 

The rifles that were never stamped with the military chrysanthemum on the receiver, but instead had the double circle marking, are usually found in fairly narrow serial number ranges.

 

It is thought that these rifles may have been "second quality" not up to military service standards but this is speculation as the Type 38 had already been superseded by a new design but remained in production.

 

It is thought by some that these rifles were used by the Japanese Police.

 

It is thought by others that these were simply sub-standard training rifles with different circle markings on the receiver.

 

Notice the circle marking on the left hand side of the wooden buttstock of this rifle.

 

For information only, I bought this rifle as a gun show walk-in from a fellow who had no idea it was any different from any other Japanese rifle he had ever seen and never mentioned the markings.

 

Thanks for looking and any thoughts will be appreciated.

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Sarge,

....I have held enough rifles but what jumps out is the character or symbol between the bottom of the mun and the "38 Type" stamp. It appears to be "Dai".The quality of the stamp is different then the 38 Type stamp and appears crude and not made at the same time. What is the significance of this mark if you know. I don't think I have seen this before.....its probably something common and all you gun guys are saying " that's easy, and he doesn't know that". What am I missing here ?

tiger41

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Tiger,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Actually, I am not certain what that character is either. Most of these concentric circle rifles, without a mum, are in a separate serial number range:

Nagoya arsenal 0 - 2,600

Kokura arsenal 0 - 1,500

 

This Kokura arsenal rifle is outside that normal range but it does have an intact mum, hence the possibility of a transfer. Perhaps transferred from the regular Army to the Military Police? I am also unsure about the circle marking on the stock. This could simply be the result of impact with the end of say a tube or small pipe but it looks awfully deliberate to me. I have seen plenty of plaques and characters such as school names stamped on the buttstock but I have not seen this circle stamp on a stock before.

 

At any rate here is what I have been able to glean off of the web.

 

 

"A small number of Type 38 and Type 99 rifles had two concentric circles on the receiver in place of the chrysanthemum. The purpose of these specially-marked rifles is not known, although it is speculated that they were issued to paramilitary forces such as the Kempei Tai (Japanese Secret Police), other military police, and guards at prisons, embassies, and other civil instillations. Some concentric circle rifles were remarked standard issue Type 38 and Type 99 rifles that had the chrysanthemum completely or partially removed and replaced with the concentric circle marking. These rifles were serialized separately from regular production pieces. Other rifles apparently were originally manufactured and marked with concentric circles, which looks something like this:"

 

circles.gif

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  • 3 years later...

I observed a Type 38 rifle marked similarly to mine on Gunbroker recently so here is a bit more information on these rifles with two concentric circles on the top of the breech.

 

The rifle seller cited the same information that is listed above except he provides the following translation and meaning of the markings on his rifle: 

 

His rifle was made at Nagoya Arsenal and the serial number is three digits, so within the specified serial number range of 0 - 2,600.

 

The two concentric circles marking shows no over-stamp of an Army mum symbol.  

 

The next marking is a "School character".

 

Next is "3".

 

Next is "8".

 

Last character is "Type".  

 

So, the seller's deduction is that these rifles with concentric circle markings are a special Type 38 school rifle although he listed it as a police rifle and described it as such citing the information in the previous posting above.  He seems to leave room to think the rifles were possibly the property of the police who checked them out to specific schools?  Still a mystery in my book.

 

 

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