Capt Trips Posted February 11, 2020 Share #1 Posted February 11, 2020 Picked these up not to long ago, I know they are real(not sure about ribbons), I paid 85.00 for both, good deal?, I wanted for a display not really up on Nazi medals. Thanks in advance Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakkasan187 Posted February 11, 2020 Share #2 Posted February 11, 2020 Can you take pictures of the backs please.. They both look alright but more pictures needed.. Looks like the West Wall medal has some Zinc Pest.. If you have a blacklight you can check the ribbons for glow.. Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Trips Posted February 11, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted February 11, 2020 Thanks Leigh, I will Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Trips Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share #4 Posted February 13, 2020 Here's the backside, and I tested them with a blacklight and no glow. Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wake1941 Posted February 13, 2020 Share #5 Posted February 13, 2020 Both look fine, black light wont tell you much though for future reference. There was plenty of original stock of ribbons, not sure Ive ever had a ribbon that glows under uv light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakkasan187 Posted February 13, 2020 Share #6 Posted February 13, 2020 I have an original West Wall medal and original Ost Medal that both have reproduction ribbons that glow under blacklight... for future reference.. I will post some pictures of said ribbons that glow under blacklight later this week... Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Trips Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share #7 Posted February 13, 2020 What are the fasmille signatures? Is one Hitler and one Himmler? Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakkasan187 Posted February 13, 2020 Share #8 Posted February 13, 2020 The signature on the back of the Mother's Cross is the facsimile of Adolph Hitler's. The date 16 December 1938 is reference to when the decoration was established. The Decoration was awarded annually on the second Sunday in May, known as Mothering Sunday or Mother's Day. It was first issued in May 1939. The Decoration was also awarded on other National annual occasions of celebration. The medal was awarded in three classes, Bronze 3rd Class (eligible mothers with 4 to 5 children) Silver 2nd Class (eligible mothers with 6-7 children) and Gold 1st Class, ( eligible mothers with 8 or more children) There were two official reverse sides of the mother's cross. The first early cross had the inscription Das Kind adelt die mutter (The child ennobles the Mother). These were found on the first decorations produced in early 1939. Later versions produced in late 1939 to 1945 had the inscription removed and replaced with the date of the decoration decree which was 16 December 1938. On both early style and later version was Hitler's facsimile signature so the one you have pictured is a later version. It also appears to be bronze in color indicating this is a 3rd class award. Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakkasan187 Posted February 13, 2020 Share #9 Posted February 13, 2020 The West Wall medal was established in August 1939 and given to those personnel who help design and build the fortifications on Germany's Western Borders, also known as the Siegfried Line. In November 1939 the eligibility was extended to Soldiers who served on the West wall for a certain period of time. Initially the West Wall medal was awarded to about 623,000 individuals and then it ceased to be awarded in January 1941. After the Normandy invasion it was re-instituted and awarded to those who help renovate and strengthen the fortifications on the Western borders. It was awarded to over 800,000 by the end of the war. The inscription on the back Fur Arbeit zum Schutze Deutschland (For work in the defense of Germany) Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Trips Posted February 14, 2020 Author Share #10 Posted February 14, 2020 Thank you Leigh, ok one signature is Hitler , what is the other?, Sent from my moto g(7) play using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakkasan187 Posted February 14, 2020 Share #11 Posted February 14, 2020 The entire signature on the Mothers Cross is Hitler's.. The first scribble to the right is his first name,,, Adolf.. This is one of many known signature variations of Hitler through his years.. Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Militiaman Posted July 2, 2020 Share #12 Posted July 2, 2020 Nice medals, ribbons are authentic too, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packratt713 Posted June 25, 2021 Share #13 Posted June 25, 2021 Nice medals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakkasan187 Posted January 9, 2022 Share #14 Posted January 9, 2022 I know that this is 7 months old but I wanted to return to the topic and discuss the validity of using UV lighting as one of the methods of checking authenticity and original non-synthetic materials... For Future Reference... Although UV light testing is not the only method to detect synthetic threads and materials, it does have merits and advantages when a Burn test on thread is just not possible, for example at a militaria show I'm sure a dealer would not be too happy to see someone pulling out a zippo lighter to do a burn test on a piece of cloth or ribbon. They may even be insulted with someone using a blacklight on one of their items for sale, but in the long run you have to be satisfied with what you are purchasing with your hard earned money.. Some may disagree but dealers can also be wrong... (who would have thought that???).. I have taken some pictures of some original Third Reich Decorations that have had replacement synthetic ribbons added to them for quicker sale. Many collectors would prefer a complete medal with ribbon suspension vs a plain medal planchet (in some cases) not all, and they would want to seek out original ribbon sections to add to their medals,,,, but unsuspecting buyers will assume that the complete medal, planchet and ribbon are authentic and would not bother with a UV test. And as WAKE1941 has stated there was/is plenty of stock of original ribbon out there but we also must face reality and in fact supply and demand will eventually win over. At the end of World War Two there were warehouses in Germany full of complete/incomplete awards and decorations and parts for medals, daggers, badges, etc. These were quickly seen post war as a money making venue by people trying to get back on their feet after the devastation of war. When original medals were all sold off the original dies that struck them were used once again making post war copies, and the same with the ribbon. When wartime original supplies of ribbon were exhausted the companies started to make synthetic ribbon to accompany said decorations. The photos below show a Mutters Kreuz (Mother's Cross) Ost Medialle (East Front Medal), two West Wall Medals and Two War Merit Medals (Kriegsverdienstmedaille). The Mothers cross on the left hand side has original Third Reich Era (1933-1945) suspension ribbon. The ribbon on the right is post war and glows under the UV light. You can also see the weave on the original ribbon is much different from the synthetic ribbon (Another method of determining period authentic vs post war reproduction) in the absence of a UV light... The Eastern Front Medal ribbon again glows a bright whit indicating synthetic post war material. The two West Wall medals although authentic, both sections of ribbon are post war synthetic and glow bright under the UV light. The two War Merit Medals side by side also show the bright glow of the fake post war ribbon on the right vs. the authentic war era (1933-1945) ribbon on the left. Upon careful examination of the ribbons you can also see details in the thicknesses of the red ribbon running through the middle of the ribbon material. The original red line is much thinner compared to the much thicker red ribbon of the fake synthetic ribbon. Also note the outer red band is much thinner on the original compared to the thicker/wider red border on the fake ribbon. I hope this information was helpful since we are all trying to learn and educate new collectors, this is one area that is often overlooked and in many cases it has proven after the fact to be a costly error and one reason why I believe the investment in a UV light is worth the money. Best regards everyone, stay safe Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARGE Posted January 10, 2022 Share #15 Posted January 10, 2022 Lleigh, Thanks for following up with this discussion. I added the word "Blacklight" to the header to aid in any later subject search. And... I fully agree with your analysis of a burn test or the use of a blacklight. Clearly a cloth thread will burn while a synthetic thread will melt. Of course the Germans used some synthetic thread during the war so just because it burns does not mean cloth is wartime. It is simply one measure of figuring out what you are looking at. Similarly, some wartime cloth will react to black light while the great majority should not fluoresce. The hot pink Carmine used for the Fire Department (Feuerwehr) will normally react because of the composition. So, I would expect FW bayonet knot inserts and uniform piping to glow while I would not expect the white Waffenfarbe of a Heer Infantry tunic to do so. Of course if the cloth has been washed with soap containing brighteners it will most certainly glow just like your tidy-whitey underwear. Again, one factor to consider when evaluating the originality of a medal ribbon, etc. IMHO there is not one magic bullet "test" to determine the originality of cloth. Instead I tend to use the "three strike rule." One or two anomalies one might be able to explain such as a failed burn test or black light reaction but three strikes and you are out with me. Perhaps an original leather bayonet scabbard or holster was repaired with synthetic thread or perhaps some collector re-sewed a patch on a uniform postwar. These things do not make the item a fake but they most probably affect the cost of an untouched item. Experience at looking at a lot of medal ribbons or leather scabbards or pistol holsters, and common sense, are the most important factors IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakkasan187 Posted January 10, 2022 Share #16 Posted January 10, 2022 Sarge, Thank you again for your additional information and knowledge. As we move along in years I feel a sense of obligation in ensuring the knowledge is passed on to our next generation of collectors in order for them to be well informed. What they choose to do with that information is up to them but without the information they may stumble around in the dark like I did so many years ago prior to imbedding myself with some very knowledgeable collectors and dealers who took me under their wings to educate me.. I appreciate all who have come forward with their expertise in order to move the collecting field forward. Best regards, stay safe Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARGE Posted January 12, 2022 Share #17 Posted January 12, 2022 Yes, I again completely agree with you. Your willingness to pass information like this along is what we should do to assist other collectors. Your photos also make what you are talking about clear and I commend you for taking the time to take these photos. One photo equals a thousand words IMHO. Keep up the good work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preppy Picker Posted September 12, 2023 Share #18 Posted September 12, 2023 Don’t forget the MC in gold with diamonds. I knew a guy in PA who was from Germany and his mom gave birth to eight blonde hair blue eyed boys. He had his moms medal and a certificate in a folder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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