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German uniform stitchery


SARGE
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"ok here is the visor that came with tunic. has this set always been together? i do not think we could ever 100% say yes or no. i will post pay book next." 

 

Jeeplover,

 

You have a nice NCO rank Pioneer Mutze but it does not match the Officer tunic so these would not have been worn together.  The cap may match the Pionieer Soldbuch but the Soldbuch does not match the tunic.  The soldier described in the book was a NCO with his highest rank of Sergeant not a 1st Lt. (Oberleutnant).  So not a complete grouping it seems.  

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

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1 hour ago, SARGE said:

 

"ok here is the visor that came with tunic. has this set always been together? i do not think we could ever 100% say yes or no. i will post pay book next." 

 

Jeeplover,

 

You have a nice NCO rank Pioneer Mutze but it does not match the Officer tunic so these would not have been worn together.  The cap may match the Pionieer Soldbuch but the Soldbuch does not match the tunic.  The soldier described in the book was a NCO with his highest rank of Sergeant not a 1st Lt. (Oberleutnant).  So not a complete grouping it seems.  

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

there was some hope it did but it is not a disappointment i love this uniform it will be with me for awhile . i have had it a few years now just looking for a house for my stuff then i can set him up. thank you for looking sorry for stealing the thread.

 

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Sarge, I really appreciate that you are sharing your knowledge here!

 

I´m adding another uniform that was donated anonymously so I do not have any further informations of the soldier. It´s a Waffenrock, Unteroffizier, Kavallerie Schuetzen-Regiment 4. The uniform came with the Schirmmuetze and some more insignia. In accordance with the topic´s theme I`m posting some close-ups of the  stiched medal loops. I would like to ask if the wear of the Kriegsverdienstkreuz and 4-years service Dienstmedaille are correct this way? Please let me know your thoughts about this uniform.

 

 

SR1.jpg

SR2.jpg

SR3.jpg

SR4.jpg

SR5.jpg

SR6.jpg

SR7.jpg

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I did some research on this unit and found out that it was formed of elements of Schuetzen-Regiment 2 among other units. Interestingly there was a single pointed (elder) Schulterklappe of a Schuetzen-Regiment 2 Unteroffizier with the grouping. Obviously Herr Unteroffizier served in both units.

 

 

SR8.jpg

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Proud Kraut,

 

This is a very good example of a parade dress Waffenrock.  Yes, all of the awards are worn correctly in this configuration.  The Heer Long Service medal is fixed on a parade mount and worn on two horizontal loops.  The KVK I with Swords is proper for the two vertical loops.  And, the Heer Marksmanship award is worn on the button fixed underneath the right shoulder board and the cord is affixed to the 2nd button on the front of the tunic.  The loops are made in the form that I normally see from good tailors and the full award (not the ribbon bar) are the way these awards should be worn on the Waffenrock by regulation.  

 

The early pointed removable shoulder board has proper flat chain stitch embroidery making up the red "S" and the "2" unlike the padded "Dress" style yellow embroidery seen on the dress tunic boards.  You can also see the difference in the NCO Tresse with a dull grey plain pattern tape on the Schuetzen-Regiment 2 boards compared to the more elaborate pattern seen on the Kavallerie-Schuetzen Regiment 4 boards.  Also, notice the even more elaborate pattern Tresse on the cuffs and collar of the Waffenrock.  The bullion Officer style eagle in either flat wire or this aluminum wire embroidery style could be worn by NCOs on the Waffenrock.  

 

Everything looks exactly as it should IMHO.

 

 

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Thanks very much for these additional informations, Sarge! Thanks also for the confimation on the correct wear of the medals. I have learned a lot again!

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On 10/19/2020 at 2:46 PM, Proud Kraut said:

Great topic. If you don´t mind I´m adding some pictures of an Artillerie Oberleutnant (1st Lt.) uniform. Nothing spectacular, all comments are welcome.

 

 

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OLt02.jpg

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Very nice tunics PK,I have a beautiful Perkuro officers visor coming in the mail that would look great with this tunic

 

           Bill 

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Would that one on the right be Copper Brown rather than Red, Perhaps in the Motorcycle Company of Schuetzen-Regiment 2, I only ask because I don't know where a member of a unit like this would wear Red Waffenfarbe of Artillery.

 

image.png.e49cbab28323b00b2e3c459c2c707b59.png

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You mean the left one, "S 2"? It seems to be "hochrot" (red). For sure not to indicate any (non existing) Artillery sub units. IF it should be red it would more likely a company color (Prussian color sequence). Maybe for the 2nd or the MG Company? I have to do some more research on that. Would be good to know if copper brown could fade to red? I really don´t know it.

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On 10/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, Kia kaha said:

Brilliant thread. Well done Sarge, keep the info following.

Thanks for the kudos.  I am glad readers are enjoying this thread.  Some collectors are hesitant to post mistakes in the way things are constructed and/or mistakes in interior markings or labels, etc. and I completely understand.  I don't want to tutor fakers on correcting their mistakes but I think the more we know the better off we are as collectors who can feel comfortable with uniforms we collect.  One out of the ordinary sewing technique does not a fake make so I use the "three strikes and you are out" method of spotting what I consider "red flags".  One or two anomalies may be explainable but three and you are out with me.  I have high confidence in items with no out of the ordinary (what I would normally expect to see) sewing techniques I can spot and progressively lower confidence with 1 - 3 of those things.  

 

Anyway, I am trying to focus on the most often seen "proper" sewing techniques that I have seen and become comfortable with over the years.  Bear in mind that there are no real experts in this hobby and everyone can have an opinion.  I just like opinions that are backed up with examples and facts.  So, if someone tells you your brand new Waffen-SS uniform is a fake... be sure to ask why?

 

 

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OK, let's look at how how NS eagles and other cloth "patches" are typically sewn on German uniforms.  Lets divide these patches into the thicker embroidered thread patches such as Wehrmacht specialty patches typically embroidered on a wool or cotton backing and flat embroidery typically done with woven rayon or cotton and often generically called "Bevo" style insignia after the machine that does this style of embroidery.  

 

In my experience, the thicker embroidered patches made on a wool or cotton backing are most often hand sewn.  Some of these are machine sewn, particularly if they come from the factory with this insignia on them.  Bullion Officer insignia often comes from a tailor and is very often carefully hand sewn onto the uniform.  Rank rates are often hand sewn as well since they were usually sewn on by the soldier or sailor as he went up in rank and will be with varying degrees of sewing competence.  

 

Bahnschutz eagle.JPG

Coverall sleeve eagle.JPG

Cuff Stripes.JPG

FW Winkl sleeve eagle.JPG

Gend eagle.JPG

Gend Off eagle.JPG

Pol Female eagle.JPG

ORPO grey eagle.JPG

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The last photo seen above is a "Bevo" style woven Pol. sleeve eagle that is machine sewn.  This is interesting because the extra material is not folded but trimmed and then machine sewn with a zig-zag stitch.  Typically the extra material is folded and then sewn on.  Early WH breast eagles were sewn on by laying the insignia upside down and face down on the area above the right breast pocket and the area above the wings and head were sewn into place.  The eagle was then folded over this concealed stitching and the other un-embroidered rectangular areas were then sewn down.  This left concealed stitches at the top and visible stitches along the rest of the insignia.  Later Bevo style WH breast eagles were triangular and after folding down all the edges they were machine sewn with visible stitches.  Presumably this was more efficient.  

 

Bevo Polizei eagle were also folded and then sewn on the uniform sleeves.  Some were machine sewn and some were hand sewn.

 

 

 

Bavarian LAPO breast eagle.JPG

Heer breast eagle.JPG

Heer breast eagle back.JPG

Heer bevo breast eagle.JPG

Heer bevo breast eagle back.JPG

Pol Panzer Eagle.JPG

Pol Panzer eagle back.JPG

Pol bevo sleeve eagle.JPG

Pol bevo sleeve eagle back.JPG

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Very informative, Sarge! I noticed the different colors of the police insignia. I once had a cuff eagle in orange color. Just a variation or does the orange color has a special meaning?

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Yes, colors are like Wehrmacht Heer Waffenfarbe in that they indicate the specific police branch.  Orange = Rural Police (Gendarmerie), Green = Municipal Police (Schutzpolizei), Wine Red = Small Town Police (Gemeindepolizei), Grey = Administrative Police (Verwaltungspolizei), Yellow = Water Police (Wasserschutzpolizei), Carmine = Fire Police (Feuerwehrpolizei), etc.  Of course there are other confusing background colors to the eagles that indicate sub-specialties but the police combat units typically wore the generic grey on green thread Bevo style eagle later in the war.  The  grey on black Bevo style eagle shown above was worn on the black Police Tanker wrapper and there was also a black on green eagle worn by the Air Raid (Luftschutzpolizei) as well.  All very confusing I am afraid.  

 

 

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Sarge, thanks very much for these infos, so it was a Gendarmerie insignia. The Police Tanker Wrapper you mentioned must be rare as hen´s teeth. I have never seen one.

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Sarge here is one for you to examine....a 20+ year ruptured duck find with additions. Tunic out of a theatrical company.   Looks like there were wings on the collar at one time...officer upgrade? Married collar? BSW pilots badge. Bronze day fighter clasp.

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Award loops. Looks like traces of a award loop below the EKI. Sleeve may have had a cuff title. I see traces of stitching. Adjutants aiguillette.  Erel Sonder Klasse hat. 

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20 hours ago, Proud Kraut said:

Sarge, thanks very much for these infos, so it was a Gendarmerie insignia. The Police Tanker Wrapper you mentioned must be rare as hen´s teeth. I have never seen one.

 

Yes, Polizei armored personnel started out wearing distinctive police-green coveralls but the uniform then evolved to a green piped black wrapper similar to the Heer and W-SS armored units.  As a modeler you would be interested in the police use of various armored vehicles from pre-war armored cars, captured armored cars & tanks, to heavy Panzerkampfwagen IV Tanks.  See Werner Regenberg, "Armored Vehicles and Units of the German Order Police (Ordnungspolizei) 1936-1945" Schiffer books, ISBN: 0-7643-1555-2.  The original is available in German.  

 

 

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"Sarge here is one for you to examine....a 20+ year ruptured duck find with additions. Tunic out of a theatrical company.   Looks like there were wings on the collar at one time...officer upgrade? Married collar? BSW pilots badge. Bronze day fighter clasp."

 

Thanks Dirk... an interesting example showing some of the difficulties verifying uniforms.  Theater companies have saved many a uniform from the dustbin but create their own problems.  Most have a competent seamstress who sews on these uniforms.  Insignia changes, size changes, etc. are common so these are all postwar sewing but generally well done by a professional.  So, what is wartime and what is postwar stitching?  

 

As you point out, clearly the collar tabs have been added on the tunic and there are holes from NCO metal gulls indicating previous Sergeant collar tabs.  Actually, rank gulls and pips with prongs being thrust entirely through the collar is not unknown as a wartime attachment technique but postwar is just as likely with a theatrical costume.  These are clearly postwar sewing changes.  

 

You also point out the medal loops on the pocket and the holes where award pins were simply thrust through the fabric.  One or both could be attributable to the costume mistress.  Again, clearly postwar changes.  The breast eagle is the early downswept tail style so I would be interested in checking the circa 1936 City Business Directory for Alfred Straub to see if he was in business in Wiesbaden then.  It is interesting this is a civilian tailor and not a military tailor.  So, he may have made the uniform but what did it look like when it left his shop?  It looks like there is a proper plastic button under the shoulder board so something was probably there but an enlisted Marksmanship cord or an officer Adjutant cord are both possible.  

 

I presume the other items did not come with the tunic?

 

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Sarge thank you for the excellent breakdown. I suspect the uniform was stripped when it was passed to the theater company of the vets name and any TR symbols, cuff title. This would allow the company to alter it to anything generic depending on the performance that called for a uniform. I just can’t see to many post war plays in Germany featuring TR themes. When it went back into the collector community the eagle and rank was probably reapplied. I think Straub was producing uniforms during the war as I found another on a online search several years ago. Strauss label does say  “uniformen” so I will guess he did make uniforms...there was a LW airfield there if I remember correctly. As you correctly pointed out the badges and clasps/aiguillettes were additions from the ruptured duck and nchs.  The dagger is a standard SMF with all the features Whitman says in his book one would expect with their product. The brocade from a vets family via their American in-laws . The hat came from a dicey dealer in the 90’s But looks ok. TR is not my interest, but your thread is very helpful in pointing sewing techniques that help me with relooking at my US items with a more careful eye. Again thank you!
 

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