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Two Police Uniforms


Fort Susquehanna

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Fort Susquehanna

I just picked these up.  I own TR items, but am mostly a WWII US Collector.  My initial feeling was that these were in too good a condition to be original, but have changed my mind about the second one.  Also, the quality of the insignia was a bother to me on the first tunic- I believe the shoulder boards are definitely original but the sleeve eagle, collar tabs, and SD lozenge looked aftermarket.  But after looking at late-war originals out there, I'm not so sure any more.  I will post better photos including the maker marks of the tunics after our latest snowfall clears enough for me to get good outside-light photos of details.  Any suggestions as to what to look for would be helpful.  

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Two interesting Police uniforms.  Take photos of the backs showing the construction as well as the cuffs and/or construction of those areas.  Photos of the interiors, including markings, button attachments, and lower pocket construction and/or dagger slits would be helpful.  Closeups of the insignia and sewing of course.

 

So, your first tunic is of the more or less correct style for a Sicherheitspolizei or SD field tunic and has the correct, but mixed time periods, insignia for the SHP.  Are the inner cords on the shoulderboards black (not brown), does the rank pip on the collar tab go through the collar, is all the insignia machine sewn?  I would like to see the inside of the shoulder to see how the shoulderboard ends are sewn in.  Frankly, this could be WWII manufacture or postwar police manufacture depending upon the details.  I am much less comfortable with this tunic than the other.

 

Your second tunic is of the correct style for a wartime Ordnungspolizei summer tunic.  The cloth is Polizei "salt & pepper" which is correct for these summer tunics and the cut is also correct although this cloth was also used after the war.  The insignia is correct for a Schutzpolizei NCO, including the late war bevo style sleeve eagle, depending upon the date of the tunic.   Same photos and questions as above.

 

Thanks for showing.  

 

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Fort Susquehanna

Sarge,

          Thanks for the tips.  These were the first photos sent to me prior to purchase.  Although I own a bunch of TR items (which are mostly souvenirs in WWII GI groupings) and have appraised them for auction before, other than a shako, I have never owned any police uniform items.  These came out of an estate but I was not privy to the estate details so am leery.  You will see some items I am not comfortable with but I do believe what we are looking at here is wartime production, if not original insignia placement.  But as I am only suspect, and don't know, any advice would be appreciated.  BTW, I did buy these to resell or trade.  Anybody who assists would get first crack at them.   

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Here are some photos of the "salt & pepper" Italian style cloth used by the police later in the war and postwar as well.  Some are more orange and some are more green, like your Sommerjacke.  One has to be careful with the cut of these ORPO uniforms to tell wartime from postwar as the material is the same.  The devil is in the details.  

 

The Sicherheitspolizei (SIPO) style tunic is more problematic in that SHP, SD, and Gestapo wore appreciably the same tunics with similar insignia, including the SD sleeve diamond if they were SD or not.  The cut of the tunic is NOT SS or SD as they had open collars.  The cut is also NOT SHP as they had lower patch pockets so I am uncertain what it is supposed to be.  It might even represent some ethnic unit whose racial status did not allow them to wear the SS rune collar tab?

 

Anyway, closer photos will probably help resolve what they are.

 

 

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Fort Susquehanna

One last detail.  There seems to be some sort of opening on the inside of the lower left pocket, but it is sewn shut.  Maybe like for provision of a bandage pocket?  

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Thanks for the excellent photographs of the details of your two tunics.

 

The "SD" tunic sets off half a dozen red flags for me I am afraid.  First, is the cut of the coat with closed collar and slash lower pockets as discussed earlier.  Frankly, I have no idea what it is supposed to be but some postwar police tunics are cut in this manner.  Second, are the mixing of insignia from two different time periods on one jacket.  For instance, NCO collar tape was eliminated by the time the police style shoulder boards were regulation.  Third, is the machine sewing of insignia in combination with the rather poor hand sewing of other insignia.  I find this unsettling to the belief that these insignia were worn on this tunic at the same time, i.e. replacement.  Fourth, strange construction such as the SS marked belt support buttons in the box tail.  While the tunic was originally made for support buttons they seem to have been for those held with split O rings instead of these sewn in ones now on the tunic.  These buttons were really forced onto this uniform with one through the original slit and the other through a new slit bypassing the original sewn hole.  After this, a piece of cloth was sewn over the inside to disguise the repair.  

 

Please understand I am not trash talking your tunic but I am trying to give you my reasons for not thinking this tunic is in a wartime configuration.

 

On the other hand, your Ordnungspolizei Sommerjacke is correct and original IMHO.  I am not certain the shoulder boards are original to this tunic due to their over long length, but they are the correct style with green rayon backing rather than felt.  The shoulder boards are the only red flag (strike) that I see on this tunic.  Three strikes and you are out with me to make a baseball analogy.  

 

If you are interested in selling the ORPO Summer Jacket I would be interested in it.

 

I hope this has been helpful.

 

 

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Skysoldier80

To add on...On your SD tunic

 

i noticed that the sleeve eagle is most likely a postwar resew because you can see traces of the original sleeve eagle on the photo that you show the inside of the sleeve.  I SD diamond I am not a fan off it doesn’t look like it has been there forever. The tunic could also be foreign made, which is why it doesn’t look textbook.  
 

so my observations from my analysis

1) original stripped tunic that was restored

2) complete Frankenstein tunic.

3) good just textbook.

 

I will end by saying that now and days, you have to be very carefully with ss stuff because there is too much BS out there.  I collect German WWII SS stuff now because the fakes and made up crap is too good for me to even tell now.  I would state I am experienced, but no expert.

 

finally, I will leave you with recommendations: 1) Get some reference books on what you are collecting before you pull the trigger on very high dollar stuff or you will get seriously burned; 2) If you are happy with it, then keep it.  There are so many different opinions out there on these ss things (including books) that it is hard to tell what is good or not.

 

the people who have posted have done some great work and provided great analysis.  You will have to chose for yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

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Fort Susquehanna

SARGE,

            Message me through here to discuss the police tunic.  More questions for these below.  

 

Skysoldier,

                 Are you saying you see traces of an older sleeve eagle sewing on the inside of the jacket?  Do you mean the shadow of another stitching (it looks like that to me)?  What do you mean by your analysis- are those three possibilities of what the SD tunic is?

 

And for anybody regarding the SD tunic.  I didn't get good photos of the shoulder boards and how they are mounted.  They look to me like they were added later.  The shoulder seams were split (not particularly well) and they are pinned onto the tunic through the original shoulder board button holes.  So here are the questions-

 

1.  Are the shoulder boards original? (they look it to me)

2.  Is the sleeve eagle original? (I think it is, but possibly re-sewn to this tunic)

3.  Is the SD patch original? (I'm not sure)

4.  Are the collar tabs original?  (I think these are original to the tunic and are machine sewn)

5.  What are your thoughts on the maker/size stamping on the inside?  

 

My thoughts are this was an original jacket (although I have to consider the possibility that it is a reproduction) which was made into an SD tunic.  

 

Even though I am not a big TR collector, I have owned a number of original uniforms, just not police uniforms.  I don't consider myself an expert and that is why I ask questions here.  I really appreciate the input.  The analysis fits my own but some is obviously beyond my experience.  

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Skysoldier80
On 2/11/2021 at 8:26 PM, Fort Susquehanna said:

SARGE,

            Message me through here to discuss the police tunic.  More questions for these below.  

 

Skysoldier,

                 Are you saying you see traces of an older sleeve eagle sewing on the inside of the jacket?  Do you mean the shadow of another stitching (it looks like that to me)?  What do you mean by your analysis- are those three possibilities of what the SD tunic is?

 

And for anybody regarding the SD tunic.  I didn't get good photos of the shoulder boards and how they are mounted.  They look to me like they were added later.  The shoulder seams were split (not particularly well) and they are pinned onto the tunic through the original shoulder board button holes.  So here are the questions-

 

1.  Are the shoulder boards original? (they look it to me)

2.  Is the sleeve eagle original? (I think it is, but possibly re-sewn to this tunic)-Yes

3.  Is the SD patch original? (I'm not sure)

4.  Are the collar tabs original?  (I think these are original to the tunic and are machine sewn)

5.  What are your thoughts on the maker/size stamping on the inside?  

 

My thoughts are this was an original jacket (although I have to consider the possibility that it is a reproduction) which was made into an SD tunic.  

 

Even though I am not a big TR collector, I have owned a number of original uniforms, just not police uniforms.  I don't consider myself an expert and that is why I ask questions here.  I really appreciate the input.  The analysis fits my own but some is obviously beyond my experience.  

Are you saying you see traces of an older sleeve eagle sewing on the inside of the jacket?  Do you mean the shadow of another stitching (it looks like that to me)?  - yes
 

What do you mean by your analysis- are those three possibilities of what the SD tunic is? -yes

 

My thoughts are this was an original jacket (although I have to consider the possibility that it is a reproduction) which was made into an SD tunic. - either foreign made or repro.  Not a fan of the liner and the stitch job for the belt ramps I do not like at all, however, german soldiers like we do today made all sorts of modifications to their uniforms so the textbook folks out there are looking for a pipe-dream 

 

anything white colored (although not a 100% proof) hit with a black light and see if anything glows.  Repros are so good now it is hard to tell somethings from photos.

 

*note there are manufactures out there that make great repros of originals then some people buy them, weather them a little, then sell as original.  You really have to have them in hand and look through the books and study them.  Whatever you do, don’t listen to anyone who tells you to start popping threads and pulling off insignia.  I have seen this done to people by collectors on certain forums to watch and laugh at someone destroy a period original uniform.  If someone tells you to do that tell them to pound sand.

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Fort Susquehanna

Skysoldier,

                 Thanks for the clarification.  These two tunics (and the camo jacket I posted under camo on this forum) all came out of a storage unit auction.  One of my contacts bought the contents and then I bought these.  I have no other information about them.  I have no plans to disassemble anything.  The camo is going on display in my private museum.  The two police jackets are going to be sold.  Again, I really appreciate the advice.  

 

Best Regards- Fort Susquehanna

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On 2/14/2021 at 7:51 PM, Skysoldier80 said:

Are you saying you see traces of an older sleeve eagle sewing on the inside of the jacket?  Do you mean the shadow of another stitching (it looks like that to me)?  - yes
 

What do you mean by your analysis- are those three possibilities of what the SD tunic is? -yes

 

My thoughts are this was an original jacket (although I have to consider the possibility that it is a reproduction) which was made into an SD tunic. - either foreign made or repro.  Not a fan of the liner and the stitch job for the belt ramps I do not like at all, however, german soldiers like we do today made all sorts of modifications to their uniforms so the textbook folks out there are looking for a pipe-dream 

 

anything white colored (although not a 100% proof) hit with a black light and see if anything glows.  Repros are so good now it is hard to tell somethings from photos.

 

*note there are manufactures out there that make great repros of originals then some people buy them, weather them a little, then sell as original.  You really have to have them in hand and look through the books and study them.  Whatever you do, don’t listen to anyone who tells you to start popping threads and pulling off insignia.  I have seen this done to people by collectors on certain forums to watch and laugh at someone destroy a period original uniform.  If someone tells you to do that tell them to pound sand.

Skysoldier, can you please name the forum or forums where a collector told someone to dismantle a uniform, I belong to at least five of them and I would like to know if any of the five have done this, although I've never seen it.

 

                       Bill

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Skysoldier80
12 hours ago, shemp h. said:

Skysoldier, can you please name the forum or forums where a collector told someone to dismantle a uniform, I belong to at least five of them and I would like to know if any of the five have done this, although I've never seen it.

 

                       Bill

I will PM you!

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