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British Crew with German AA Gun -- Dad's photo


Custermen
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This photo is from my Father's scrapbook.  He took several photographs of this Anti-Aircraft gun.  It was probably taken in January 1945 in Italy.  If it was this time of year, the photo would have been taken in the Apennine Mountains north of Florence or in the foothills to the West closer to Lucca.  

 

He always described it as: "British troops shooting a German gun using Italian shells"

As with many of Dad's stories, my brother and I would roll our eyes as if to say "Aw Dad, you expect us to believe that."  As we grew up and investigated his stories---such as when he saw a camel grazing under the Leaning Tower of Pisa---we learned some of them had some Truth to them or they were totally true.  

 

BritsGun.jpg.2c9fcb3879df1ac5e1d918ffcb79dc2d.jpg

 

First Q: What type of troops are these?  British?

  That is fairly east to research.  The British 8th Army and were fighting on the Eastern side of the Front.  However, it is possible that some of the independent assets were placed under the US 5th Army or one of its corps.  I have a detailed organizational table for the Spring Offensive but I don't see any with the Americans.

I wondered if they were Canadian.  Most of the Canadian generally remained grouped under their corps.  Also they began pulling out of Italy sometime around February. 

  Can anything be read from their insignia?  Is that an 8th Army patch or a division patch?

My answer is:  British.

 

Second Q:   What type of AA gun is this?  

 

Third Q:  Was there any Italian ammo that could be used in this gun?  Or did the Italian have this gun in their arsenal?

 

IF the answer to the last two Q's were this was a BOFORS, then the British and Italians may used them. 

Help me solve another of my Father's stories.
One possible Answer is---these British chaps were pulling a joke on the American Yanks.  That really doesn't fit as my Father was in the Artillery and had some knowledge of guns and markings etc.  

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Sorry--- I wish the photo was clearer.  I have seen at least 3 photos of this gun and crew.  The family lost his scrapbook---maybe in a closet or an attic.  I did salvage some negatives and sent them out for digital scanning.  These digital photos have some great resolution and you can pick out a lot of detail.

 

Here is an example.

He took this photo of a passing truck convoy from a position below the road.  It wasn't until I got the digital images, could I make out Italian Alpini troops riding in the back of the truck.

614988886_DadsphotoAlpini.JPG.4b49f102cc683f28691ea5a262fad102.JPG

 

This shows how much of the image was used for the above image.

1002951789_DadsphotoAlpini2.jpg.b8b0b76b2aaae957caedd859c8e7ce19.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, earlymb said:

I think the gun is a German quadruple 20mm Flak, and the truck seems to be a GMC CCKW353.

Thanks.  I thought I knew what the gun was but I searched US weapons and didn't find it. 

So do you think the Italians were using it and their ammo was produced in Italy and had Italian markings on the crates, etc??  That would make Dad's caption totally true.

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It is a Flak 38 gun.  I tried to find a vintage photo taken from the same view as my Dad's photo. 

I had to resort to a photo of a model of the gun.

Every detail matches.

325892929_German20mmFlak38model.jpg.f2464e5476df2f94df4e32f7e2d643fa.jpg

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Some very interesting photos! The Italian army had a 2 cm Flak as well (M41 Scotti). I haven´t find out yet if the ammo could be used with the German Flak 38 as well but your dad could be right.

Could you please post an enlargement of the two British soldiers´sleeves with the patches.

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1 hour ago, Proud Kraut said:

The Italian army had a 2 cm Flak as well (M41 Scotti). I haven´t find out yet if the ammo could be used with the German Flak 38 as well but your dad could be right.

Could you please post an enlargement of the two British soldiers´sleeves with the patches.

I will try but I posted the best photo that I have. 

2090059894_Britchap.JPG.a96af9be99fde9ed50c43ea7327bf7f1.JPG

 

I contacted a FB Italian buddy who relic hunts and has a large collection.  Here is what he said. 
The Italians used a 20mm Breda cannons in WW2 (single barreled) which used same ammunition as their German counterpart. The brass ones were Italian made of late 30s, the steel ones were mixed German and Italian ones, wartime production.  Italian guns used flat clips; German ones used box type banana shaped magazines. 
 

 

He wasn't sure how they were marked their ammo or crates.  

 

I solved it.  Dad was right on all three parts of the statement:  "British troops shooting a German gun using Italian shells"

 

 

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1 hour ago, Proud Kraut said:

Could you please post an enlargement of the two British soldiers´sleeves with the patches.

I almost looks like a "Y" but I'm sure the 5th Division had left Italy by December 1944.  I could be wrong.

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But don't rule out a Polish insignia.  They didn't leave until February.   Most of them wore the 2nd Corps patch.  The rest of their division patches had a tree, a bull or a arm with sword.  Nothing like this one. 

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14 hours ago, Custermen said:

I contacted a FB Italian buddy who relic hunts and has a large collection.  Here is what he said. 
The Italians used a 20mm Breda cannons in WW2 (single barreled) which used same ammunition as their German counterpart. The brass ones were Italian made of late 30s, the steel ones were mixed German and Italian ones, wartime production.  Italian guns used flat clips; German ones used box type banana shaped magazines. 
 

 

He wasn't sure how they were marked their ammo or crates.  

 

I solved it.  Dad was right on all three parts of the statement:  "British troops shooting a German gun using Italian shells"

 

 

 

Very interesting! The Flak 38 also came in a single barrel-version, and all versions were mounted to a wide variety of vehicles to make them more mobile.

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2 hours ago, earlymb said:

The Flak 38 also came in a single barrel-version, and all versions were mounted to a wide variety of vehicles to make them more mobile.

My friend said the Germans were prolific in their use of the single-barrel version.  Was this the gun seen in action on "Finding Private Ryan"??

 

Also thanks for ID-ing that truck.  I barely know how to identify a 1/2 ton from a 1 ton, etc.  

Also I forgot to mention, the Alpini (Mountain troops), seen in the back of that truck, were employed as mule skinners and mountain guides.  

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Thanks for posting the enlarged photo of the soldier´s sleeve insignia. After a detailed research I can´t add more infos than those you have already posted. But if your dad knew what ammo was used with the Flak he surely has talked to the crew. So I would vote for British.

 

P.S.: I edited the title of your topic so it will draw more attention

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32 minutes ago, Proud Kraut said:

But if your dad knew what ammo was used with the Flak he surely has talked to the crew. So I would vote for British.

I never thought of that.  But then sometimes I don't understand British.

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53 minutes ago, Custermen said:

I never thought of that.  But then sometimes I don't understand British.

 

I meant British crew/insignia, as your dad had described it.

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14 minutes ago, Proud Kraut said:

I meant British crew/insignia, as your dad had described it.

Sorry.  I wasn't clear and I was trying to make a joke.  

 

During the 1944/45 Winter "stalemate" in Northern Italy, the Allies had the luxury of getting relieved off the front line.  The 85th Division was moved around.  Once they were moved to the West to support the 92nd Infantry Division who were pushed back in December 1944.  There was another occasion, probably just before the start of the Spring Offensive, they were ordered to remove their shoulder patches and cover up the unit ID on the bumper of vehicles and make a night redeployment.  I'm sure by all the snow, this photo was taken when they were back in the Apennine Mountains south of Bologna.  

 

One interesting fact that I learned about my Father's 328th Field Artillery Battalion.  When they were supporting the 92nd Infantry "Buffalo" Division that last week in December 1944, they were assigned to the 92nd Division.  Well, back in 1918, most of the 85th "Custer" Division---except for the 339 IR that was sent to Russia---did not see combat but supplied replacement troops for other divisions.  However, the last two weeks of WW1, the 328th Field Artillery (Brigade) was attached to the 92nd Infantry Division at the front lines.   History does repeat. 


I found this cool book that provided their WW1 history.  My father happened to be in Battery B in WW2.

1462618223_DoingsofBatteryB.JPG.95bd19009e8c8b6b9bf15de5dddf6512.JPG

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/6/2021 at 3:28 PM, numbersix said:

Could possibly be a 24th Infantry Brigade insignia, they were in Italy late 1943 until the end of the war

I think I missed seeing your post.  That might be a match. 

I have to look for some organizational tables for that period in Italy.  The British sent part of the 10th Indian Division over to the West in December 1944 and it might have included an AA unit.   This snow suggests a later time but maybe they were still there.   Who knows, these soldiers may not be a member of an AA unit but an infantry brigade that had time on their hands to shoot at aircraft.  

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