Uniform Identification

[Catherine Coomber]

Dear Forum

I am trying to identify the uniform in photo below

 

I believe (but cannot prove) that it maybe British  and is the A H Corps (Army Hospital Corps)

 

I am hoping it is my Great Grandfather who joined the British Army in 1860 and retired any time after 1882

 

Thank you for your time

Regards Cathy

[GCCE1854]

Bumping this as it was posted in another board. Hopefully, an answer will be found in this board.

[Gunner87]

On 12/21/2021 at 11:50 AM, Catherine Coomber said:

Dear Forum

I am trying to identify the uniform in photo below

 

I believe (but cannot prove) that it maybe British  and is the A H Corps (Army Hospital Corps)

 

I am hoping it is my Great Grandfather who joined the British Army in 1860 and retired any time after 1882

 

Thank you for your time

Regards Cathy

 

Hi Cathy

 

Attached is the uniform of the Army Hospital Corps in 1864 which was navy in colour. 

 

I will tag expert member @FROGSMILE who maybe able assist further.

 

Alternatively you could share the name of you Grandfather and a member maybe able to assist by searching for his records and confirm what regiment he served with.

 

Gunner87

 

 

 

 

[Gunner87]

On 6/4/2023 at 8:28 PM, GCCE1854 said:

Bumping this as it was posted in another board. Hopefully, an answer will be found in this board.

 

Having consulted an expert in this field I can say the soldier is serving in a Volunteer Battalion, which were auxiliary units, very much like the United States National Guard, between 1894 and just prior to the Second Boer War which began in 1899. What confirms this are the grey uniform, coloured facings and Austrian cuff knots, see attached, plus the Field Service Cap.  What we need is the soldiers name so as to research which regiment the Volunteer Battalion belonged to or a location of where he lived.

 

This link has some useful information and images that explain the Rifle Volunteers https://suburbanmilitarism.wordpress.com/tag/rifle-volunteers/page/3/

 

Considering the above if Catherine's Great Grandfather served between 1860 and about 1882 then the photograph is not him. 

 

Gunner87

 

[Catherine Coomber]

Thank you so much for trying to help me I very much appreciate your time

 

As you say it cannot be my Great Grandfather could it be my Grandfather whose name is Ernest Herbert Browne he was born in 1873 in Halifax Nova Scotia Canada (This being where his Father was stationed) the family were back in England by the 1881 census. They lived in Greenwich London England

 

Ernest as far as I am aware enlisted in 1894 at Woolwich Kent in the Royal Engineers, his number 28247

I can only find him serving up until 1898 but I don't know if this is right (These dates would match yours from above) 

 

Thank you 

Cathy

 

 

 

 

[Gunner87]

1 hour ago, Catherine Coomber said:

Thank you so much for trying to help me I very much appreciate your time

 

As you say it cannot be my Great Grandfather could it be my Grandfather whose name is Ernest Herbert Browne he was born in 1873 in Halifax Nova Scotia Canada (This being where his Father was stationed) the family were back in England by the 1881 census. They lived in Greenwich London England

 

Ernest as far as I am aware enlisted in 1894 at Woolwich Kent in the Royal Engineers, his number 28247

I can only find him serving up until 1898 but I don't know if this is right (These dates would match yours from above) 

 

Thank you 

Cathy

 

 

 

 

Hi Cathy. 

 

On Ernest's enlistment papers for the Royal Engineers he stated previous service. I would say your photograph, if it is your Grandfather, was likely taken then. Unfortunately no details of that service is recorded but here is a photograph of the Shropshire Volunteer Rife Corps who wear the grey uniform, dark facings, Austrian  cuff knots and Field Service Caps. 

 

 

[Catherine Coomber]

Hi Gunner 87

 

Thank you for your reply

You say on Ernest's enlistment papers he stated previous service. Could you please tell where it states this as I am not seeing it.

 

I only knew they were Ernest's enlistment papers as they stated his parents names, address which I know was a family home and he was born in Nova Scotia

 

So I presume you are saying it is a possibility that this is Ernest?

 

Thank you for the photograph and also the link you sent me

 

Cathy

 

[Gunner87]

1 hour ago, Catherine Coomber said:

Could you please tell where it states this as I am not seeing it

 

Hi Cathy.

 

My sincere apologies, I must have read that incorrectly. Ernest had no previous service noted on his record. It appears he deserted in 1898 and as this is not a Royal Engineers uniform it can't be him in that period.

 

What is a possibility, looking at the Census from 1881 to 1911, is Ernest serving in the Northamptonshire Rifle Volunteers around 1901 as this is where he was living. If you think the soldier is Ernest then this could explain the grey uniform.

 

Kind regards

 

Gunner

 

 

[Catherine Coomber]

Hi Gunner87

 

Thank you again for your reply. 

I thought I was reading Ernest's enlistment papers wrong or missing something, so thank you for saying you had read it incorrectly.

Yes I did see he had deserted in 1898 but it doesn't say what punishment he was given or whether he stayed in the Army or not or was transferred 

 

He did live in Northamptonshire in 1901 and Hertfordshire in 1911. He died in 1915 age 41

 

Although my family were all in the services none of the other dates when they served match up with the 1894 until 1899.

 

It was Ernest's wife (my Grandmother) that kept the photo along with other bits and pieces, and has been kept in the family. 

The photo actually travelled over a number of years to Canada, America, back to Canada and then to England. So it obviously meant a lot to my Grandmother and my Father

 

But saying that I didn't want to presume it was him

 

Regards Cathy

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gunner87]

On 6/16/2023 at 11:05 AM, Catherine Coomber said:

it doesn't say what punishment he was given or whether he stayed in the Army or not or was transferred

 

Hi Cathy.

 

I was really interested to see if I could find another record for Ernest that may match the uniform. The issue we face is that, had Ernest rejoined after 1898, he would likely have given a different name as it doesn't appear the issue of his desertion from the Royal Engineers was concluded. Had Ernest returned and been punished this would have been added to his 'Squadron, Troop, Battery and Company Defaulter Book' as had his earlier offence. It is interesting, and maybe relevant, that Ernest gives his place of birth as 'America' and not 'Nova Scotia' on the 1901 Census in Desborough, Northampton. 

 

The other point I thought to look at was whether 8th Company, Royal Engineers, which I believe should, but not 100%, read 8th (Railway) Company, were due to be posted overseas and as such, a reason for Ernest's desertion. The Second Boer War, which the company served in didn't start until 1899, so we can factor that out. Also Ernest appears to have spent his whole service at the School of Military Engineering in Kent, qualifying as a 'Turner, Iron' and 'Engine Driver', so may not have wanted a posting outside the United Kingdom should the company been warned of such a deployment. As such, I think having just married Elizabeth Hill in April 1897 and the birth of their first child, Ella Madeline Phyliss Browne, in January 1898, could well be the reason for his absence, starting 1st February 1898. In addition, being illegally absent only 3 years previously is the reason Ernest was in Northamptonshire and not with his family in London. 

 

As you say the photograph was close to your Grandmothers heart so in all likely hood is Ernest which does give credence to the theory he is serving with the local Volunteer Battalion in 1901. 

 

I could be way off the mark there but the photograph is not Ernest before joining the Royal Engineers, unless he didn't declare a brief stint in a Volunteer Battalion, but why wouldn't he list this, plus he appears older than a teenager in the portrait. It isn't the uniform of the Royal Engineers, so the only possibility is Ernest serving in a Volunteer Battalion after 1898. 

 

I'm sure most of the above you know and have considered but I thought to finalise the research to date outlining the reason the photograph could be Ernest serving in the British Army in a unit other than the Royal Engineers.

 

Kind Regards

 

Gunner..... 

[Catherine Coomber]

Hi Gunner

Good detective work on my family as you have it exactly right

The couple Ernest was with in 1901 was his sister-in-law and her husband (His wife's sister)

And yes I agree he definitely looks older than a teenager in the photo

 

I spent yesterday using different names that Ernest might have used to re-enlist but sadly to no avail

 

Thank you so much for trying to help me, you must have spent quite a bit of time on this, I really do appreciate it

 

Maybe I am doomed to never know 100% if this is Ernest or not but I cannot see who else it could be from the dates

 

Thank you again Gunner

Regards Cathy