44 pattern SAS badge review

[Milihfra]

Hello all,

 

I would like some other opinions on this SAS beret badge I am interested in. It looks correct from the front compared to other examples and on the back it looks ok, while the paper initially raised some concern I have read that this pattern had a lot of variety and may indicate its older than others. That being said, I know it is impossible to determine when exactly this badge would have been used from late WW2 through the 1950s.

[Tonomachi]

It is difficult to nail down the dates on these 1944 pattern SAS beret badges because they were worn from 1944 through the 1960s.  When the SAS returned to the UK from Italy near the end of World War Two they were forced to give up their sand colored berets and wear the maroon berets of the Parachute Regiment.  Their SAS beret badges also changed slightly where British insignia manufactures shortened Excalibur's sword because the overall shape became shorter and wider.  I have seen three different backings with this pattern badge with the fronts being identical.  I could be wrong about this but I believe the WW2 era pieces have no rear covering in that the embroidery is sewn through a black tight weave backing material.  I believe the ones with the same black tight weave backing material that covers up the embroidery as well as the black paper backed ones are more 1950s era pieces used during the Malayan Emergency conflict.   This is what I have read which if you think about it doesn't make sense because supposedly there was a surplus of SAS beret badges at the end of WW2 and the British military not wanting to throw anything away continued to issue these after the war until stocks were depleted in the 1950s.  If this was the case then these pattern 1944 SAS beret badges should all be identical without any differences in backing material.    

[Milihfra]

On 12/13/2022 at 8:03 PM, Tonomachi said:

It is difficult to nail down the dates on these 1944 pattern SAS beret badges because they were worn from 1944 through the 1960s.  When the SAS returned to the UK from Italy near the end of World War Two they were forced to give up their sand colored berets and wear the maroon berets of the Parachute Regiment.  Their SAS beret badges also changed slightly where British insignia manufactures shortened Excalibur's sword because the overall shape became shorter and wider.  I have seen three different backings with this pattern badge with the fronts being identical.  I could be wrong about this but I believe the WW2 era pieces have no rear covering in that the embroidery is sewn through a black tight weave backing material.  I believe the ones with the same black tight weave backing material that covers up the embroidery as well as the black paper backed ones are more 1950s era pieces used during the Malayan Emergency conflict.   This is what I have read which if you think about it doesn't make sense because supposedly there was a surplus of SAS beret badges at the end of WW2 and the British military not wanting to throw anything away continued to issue these after the war until stocks were depleted in the 1950s.  If this was the case then these pattern 1944 SAS beret badges should all be identical without any differences in backing material.    

Thanks for your help as always. I guess the British were much like the US as far as using surplus insignia for the next conflict. You certainly know more than me but I read somewhere else that the black paper backed versions might signify them being closer to the late WW2 era, but there again that was someone else's input. I know that either way as you said its very hard to be 100% certain. I see what you are also saying about how the badge should be uniform design if the surplus use was true, maybe a mix of stocks were being used?

[Tonomachi]

One of the things I forgot to mention was that the black line that travels down the middle of what looks like wings coming off Excalibur does not actually touch the side of the sword.  This is what you look for in a WW2 1944 pattern SAS beret badge.  If the black lines actually touches the sides of Excalibur it is considered post war like the Malayan Emergency conflict SAS beret badge pictured below.  This is what I have read by individuals who are advanced collectors of SAS insignia.

 

 

 

[phillock]

Hi Tonomachi

 

The image you posted is the one I own. I have been told by 3 Belgium and French WWII SAS collectors,this type  was issued to French and Belgium SAS during WWII, it is a variant and differs from the known example with a white cloth backing. 

 

The Malayan variant is a darker blue as per image for referance.

 

Phill

[Tonomachi]

On 1/2/2023 at 6:32 PM, phillock said:

Hi Tonomachi

 

The image you posted is the one I own. I have been told by 3 Belgium and French WWII SAS collectors,this type  was issued to French and Belgium SAS during WWII, it is a variant and differs from the known example with a white cloth backing. 

 

The Malayan variant is a darker blue as per image for referance.

 

Phill

Thanks for the correction.  This would mean that there are exceptions to this rule that advance SAS collectors rely upon where the black line touching Excalibur being a way of determining that a SAS beret badge is a post war piece. 

[phillock]

Hi T

 

I think SAS winged daggers are a specialist field that requires a lot of years collecting , researching ,handling and having provenance. 

Yes there are guildlines and sealed 44 dated WD but what I have noticed is there is information that is not shared.

 

I have come across this in collecting WWII/ Ranger scrolls and Korean war ovals(eg:Red on Black).

 

I can only go by what I have been told so far.

 

Below is a  Formation Sign, 21 SAS worn 1947-56, Im lucky I got both SAS WD in NZ misidentified as NZ SAS 1970/80's

 

cheers

 

Phill

 

 

To answer your question the daggers touching excalibur were issued to French and Belgium SAS , which has been documented thoroughly and a similar style issued to Malayan Emergency SAS in with a  dark blue colour as per above image.

 

cheers

 

Phill