Real, Fake or Combination?

[BryanJ]

I usually monitor several on-line auction sites for U.S. military edged weapons that I’m familiar with and collect.  Still, I consult a variety of my collector books before I buy anything.   On several prominent auction sites (to include a site that currently has a live edged weapons auction underway) there are almost always more German blades up for sale, than any other nationality, and by far.  Most interesting is the wide variety of German blades that come up for sale from every branch of military service, plus obscure German civil organizations from WWII period and earlier.   So my questions are as follows:  How does such a large volume of German blades consistently come up for sale in these auctions - does this stuff just get repeatedly purchased and flipped by buyers hoping to make a profit?  Are the majority of blades in these type auctions usually legitimate?  Are there foreign companies out there making what appear to be very close reproductions, and this stuff is being marketed as legitimate to unsuspecting buyers?  I just don’t understand how this extremely large volume of German blades repeatedly come up in these on-line auctions.  Any thoughts on this?

 

 

[Preppy Picker]

People are passing away and their collections are sold. They made millions of daggers and US GIs brought a huge amount home. Daggers are one of the most sought after German collectible and there are thousands of dagger collections here in the US.

[Rakkasan187]

Bryan,

 

Good questions... Here are some thoughts on this observation of yours...

 

First, I agree 100% with what PP has stated regarding collections of Third Reich daggers (as well as other items brought back by Soldiers), as the Veterans pass, the families either don't want the things their relatives collected due to what the TR represented or for other reasons and they want to make some money, one really never knows but there will always be an ample supply of them on the market...

 

BUT.... also keep in mind that at the end of the war many of the factories that produced the daggers still had bins full of unfinished parts and pieces and many GIs grabbed pieces from those bins and built daggers. Many of these "Parts" daggers have also flooded the markets. There were some very prominent and well-known US dealers who went to Germany and to the factories at Solingen and bought all of the surplus parts and many made a very lucrative business selling these "Frankendaggers" post war. Many of these daggers look fine to the unsuspecting person but since the parts for daggers were made and shipped from one factory to another for assembly or final construction and mismatched parts don't always fit, these daggers can be picked out if one studies the origins and goes back into the factory records. Reference books cover only the basics, so one must delve deeper in the actual factory records to be able to know what they made, what was shipped to them and put together and what was shipped from their factories to other factories, etc... Most of these German records were lost but there are some known files that have provided a wealth of information to collectors over the years...

 

Since the war, many have observed the increasing rise in prices of anything related to the Third Reich and many have taken advantage of this market. Individuals as well as countries have profited from this making reproduction, fake and fantasy products and many unsuspecting buyers continue to waste their money of the fraudulent artifacts. There will also be fakes mixed into veteran collections as many wanted to add other items to their things and let's face facts and truth.... some veterans although sad to say will "embellish" what they did in the war and add things of interest to impress their families... Not every Soldier stormed Omaha Beach on D-Day and killed a German Soldier to get a helmet or a dagger or a piece of cloth.... There were many who came after the assault waves and in order to validate their own participation in the war may have actually purchased something from a mail order catalog in the 1960's or 1970s such as Delta International or from Manion's Auction house or other venue to stick in duffel bag to bring out when the family asked, "What did you do in the war?",,,,

 

China is producing fake Third Reich daggers and other items at a colossal rate... I would imagine they have actually surpassed actual wartime German Productions of these items, also many of the countries that were behind the Iron curtain jumped on the band wagon after the fall of the Berlin Wall.... Before the reunification of Germany, it was very hard to find East German military items,,, and soon after the wall came down the flood gates opened up, and for about 10 years, East German items were scooped up for low prices but now some of those East German items are now more expensive, but they are even reproduced because there is a market for these items....

 

Long story short,, you really have to know what you are collecting and by studying the manufacturing methods and techniques you can better identify parts daggers from original daggers and fake daggers as well as other items of militaria.

 

Best regards

 

Leigh 

 

 

 

 

[BryanJ]

Best of luck to any new collector of German militaria who has to sort through the legitimate stuff and the mountain of fake stuff out there.  But, the stuff always sells and at a premium.  Somebody’s making a boatload of cash, and I suspect there is another boatload of purchasers getting hosed.  

[Rakkasan187]

Bryan,

 

Some of the newer collectors that I have come across have the "Wikipedia Knowledge" at their fingertips and no matter what any seasoned collector tells them about something being fake or reproduction, they will argue the point that the seasoned collector doesn't know what they are talking about, and their items are 100% authentic, because they found it on Wikipedia.... So go figure.... 

 

So new collectors who take advice and buy reference books and listen to experienced and knowledgeable collectors can have a very good and legitimate collection when they take the time to listen and learn....

 

Now I am not disparaging younger or newer collectors, however since the dawn of the internet and the World Wide Web.... Reference books and the SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) who wrote them are becoming extinct like the dinosaurs....

 

Caveat Emptor....

 

Best regards

 

Leigh 

 

 

[US Army 86]

BryanJ  &  Rakkasan187 can either one of you (or other members) may recommend any books they have regarding German daggers & bayonets?
I collect US knives & bayonets and have some books on those edge weapons, which I’ve used as a reference when buying, selling or trade. 
Recently at a few military shows I had  a few buyers that had German daggers/ bayonets to sell or trade with me but I’m not that familiar the foreign/overseas edged weapons. 

[Marshallj]

Just to make things more interesting there were some nice quality daggers coming out of Spain in the 1970’s being sold by a place in Virginia called Unique Imports. They are probably being sold as originals now considering they have aged 50 years. 

[Rakkasan187]

Army 86,,,

 

There are numerous books written on the Third Reich daggers and knives and I would also suggest branching out to a few other forums. We have a great forum here and the members here are also wonderful, but this forum is in its infancy and the knowledge base here will take some time to grow. I would like to suggest checking out the WAR RELICS FORUM. There is great information on there and members there are just as helpful as the members here. There are specialists in daggers and knives that are well known in the communities and are quite helpful. There is a forum reference library on that site which can better tell you and show you the reference books available. 

 

I could list the Dagger and Reference Books that I have (about 40) but it will take hours to write. Some of the books are decent representations of what the daggers look like but with no details about makers and other information. This was learned after collecting for the past 50 plus years and buying reference books and material when it was written and published. 

 

There is one series written by LTC Thomas M. Johnson which are some of the more detailed and informative. "Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich" These came out in the 70s but are still pretty decent. I have 8 volumes of the books which I believe are all in the set. 

 

If you want to focus on Bayonets then one top shelf book on German Bayonets is "Seitengewehr, History of the German Bayonet 1919-1945" by George T. Wheeler. 

 

Hope this information is a starting point for you.

 

Leigh 

[Preppy Picker]

Once you know what a real one looks like getting fooled will become a thing of the past.