S.ChrisKelly Posted July 29 #2 Posted July 29 Those look like reproductions from the 1970s ~ 1980s. I remember during that period reproduction high ~ rank ᛋᛋ collar patches were copiously available and for that era they were decent reproductions at a respectable price {sold as reproductions}. The tags may or may not be original, but likely are fake. Originals of the collar patches in those images are super extra rare, highly sought after and super extra expensive.
Preppy Picker Posted July 29 #3 Posted July 29 They look promising, to make a definite ID we will need better pictures. Are you using your phone to take the pictures?
S.ChrisKelly Posted July 30 #5 Posted July 30 Thanks for the better images. Confirmed, as I mentioned in Post #2. Absolutely reproductions. The RZM tag is a dead giveaway.
S.ChrisKelly Posted July 31 #8 Posted July 31 These images may help in determining the authenticity of the RZM labels shown in Post #7. The condition of the labels indicates they are not original to the collar patches to which they are attached. They may be fake. Sources: https://www.emedals.com/products/germany-ss-a-waffen-ss-enlisted-personnel-runic-collar-tab-g52302 https://privatecollections.ca/WW2-german-nazi-waffen-ss/waffen-ss-brigadefuhrer-major-rank-oakleaf-collar-tab-both-rzm-tags https://privatecollections.ca/WW2-german-nazi-waffen-ss/ww2-german-nazi-matched-set-waffen-ss-collar-tabs-rzm-tag
Mr.Jerry Posted July 31 #10 Posted July 31 I am not sure what I am seeing here- the examples shown in post #8 (other than the emedals tab) are complete and utter fake garbage. I am not sure what we are supposed to compare them to. The ones shown in the original post, actually look somewhat promising, a cloth tag on an early SS-VT tab is to be expected, and the "F" level tab on a hand done bullion tab would also be what i would expect to see. As mentioned these are rare and sought after tabs, so caution is always warranted, but from the pics so far, I am not discounting these- they warrant further research.
S.ChrisKelly Posted July 31 #11 Posted July 31 Another few resources, including {second resource}, one web ~ site with nine pages of images. https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-uniforms-insignia/ss1-collar-tab-wire-12486-2/ https://www.emedals.com/collections/europe-germany-ss-awards-insignia-collar-tabs?phcursor=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzayI6InByb2R1Y3RfY3JlYXRlZF9hdCIsInN2IjoiMjAyNC0xMC0wNFQxOTowMjoxMi4wMDBaIiwiZCI6ImYiLCJ1aWQiOjQxNzA0MzA5MzkxNjM3LCJsIjoyMSwibyI6MCwiciI6IkNEUCIsInYiOjEsInAiOjJ9.apPdZi_YsIUFW4G7u3lWKsX1dk8yzWmPdMv4RG_KcV8 Image 3, in Post #4, is the reverse of the collar patch shown in image 6, Post #4. The collar tab has a machine embroidered clothing tag on the reverse. Absolutely wrong! Paper labels were used. This collar tab is a pre ~ war Allgemeine ᛋᛋ reproduction with moth damage likely due to improper storage. The "F" on the paper tags is a proof issue series code and has nothing to do with the embroidery style. Those labels look like photocopied fakes, like those in the third image in Post #8. Source For Identification: https://www.medalbook.com/europe/germany/third-reich-1933-1945/organizations-of-the-third-reich/s-s/s-s-verfgungstruppe/insignia/collar-tabs/s-s-v-t-standarten/ss-vt-medical-detachment-collar-tabs-8 "SS-VT Medical Detachment Collar Tabs" To further add to the confusion and conundrum, check out this web ~ site: http://e-militaria.com/catalog/germany_third_reich/SS/gallery/zz_tk20_tab_JL-KK/index.html
Mr.Jerry Posted July 31 #12 Posted July 31 I respectfully disagree- From my experience, cloth tags WERE certainly used, on cufftitles, tabs and armbands, from 1936-38ish. Also the letter code is a Tax level, so the more complex an item, the higher ( or lower letter) you will see; A for bevo eagles, B for embroidered enlisted tabs, etc. I had a J for a hand embroidered SS cape eagle. and a "Q" for a 25' x 25' DAF Honor flag. Here is a numbered SS-TV tab with a cloth tag from a recent veteran lot I acquired.
S.ChrisKelly Posted July 31 #13 Posted July 31 The Reference... It is itself a highly ~ sought after expensive collectors item, if you can find it. Wish I hadn't sold mine, but as I do not buy, collect, sell or trade ᛋᛋ material, I had no use for it. https://www.amazon.com/Cloth-Insignia-SS-John-Angolia/dp/0912138289 https://bhzmilitaria.com/en/militaria-winkel/producten-archief/cloth-insignia-of-the-ss-john-r-angolia-2nd-edition/ Another source for identification: https://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/CT3W.php
Mr.Jerry Posted July 31 #14 Posted July 31 i still have mine (the covers are very worn!) The Beaver/Bando book is also excellent.
Preppy Picker Posted July 31 #15 Posted July 31 Mike Beaver took a pile of pictures of my old SS collection before it was sold to Jason Burmeister 15 years ago. I’ve never seen the book
Rakkasan187 Posted August 1 #16 Posted August 1 SS items are such a difficult area to understand and collect, and without good reference sources and knowledgeable folks there is always concern when one see's paper and cloth RZM tags. The books mentioned are also very good to have to compare and contrast true originals vs high quality reproductions... I have both books but with that said my SS collection is rather limited to the easier to find collar tabs and some of the items were by chance obtained in veteran bring backs, but with that said skepticism and caution are always necessary. I actually like the F marked RZM tag.. It may actually stand a chance of being authentic and the tab itself as well...but again, I try to steer clear of the higher end SS tabs https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/ss-uniforms-insignia/rzm-tag-842887-3/ Leigh
S.ChrisKelly Posted August 1 #17 Posted August 1 Decades ago, I had an absolutely mint set of beautiful BeVo ᛋᛋ collar patches {ᛋᛋ-Mann}, a single BeVo ᛋᛋ runes patch removed from a uniform, two embroidered ᛋᛋ sleeve eagles and an officer's ᛋᛋ runes patch with a "1" in the lower right corner, and it still had a noticeable amount of the RZM tag on the reverse. All originals, no question. That was the extent of my collection. I actually never bought any ᛋᛋ items. Personal affairs and a financial disaster, which nearly overtook me, forced their sale. I knew I'd never get that stuff back again, as the ᛋᛋ cloth and metal insignia markets have been flooded with fakes nearly impossible to distinguish from originals, authentic, genuine items super extra overpriced, and paucity of availability. That's when I "checked out"... Probably twenty ~ plus years ago. Thanks for listening/reading.
S.ChrisKelly Posted August 2 #18 Posted August 2 One more resource: http://themarshalsbaton.com/Framepage.htm
S.ChrisKelly Posted August 7 #20 Posted August 7 Just a thought... Many decades ago, a militaria dealer I knew in Williamsburg, Virginia gave me the most reliable but impractical advice... "If you want a guarantee that it's absolutely genuine, you get it from the guys who wore it or the guys who got it off the guys who wore it."
Marshallj Posted August 7 #21 Posted August 7 12 hours ago, S.ChrisKelly said: Just a thought... Many decades ago, a militaria dealer I knew in Williamsburg, Virginia gave me the most reliable but impractical advice... "If you want a guarantee that it's absolutely genuine, you get it from the guys who wore it or the guys who got it off the guys who wore it." Sadly those guys are so few in numbers.
Rakkasan187 Posted August 7 #22 Posted August 7 2 hours ago, Marshallj said: Sadly those guys are so few in numbers. Just a thought... Many decades ago, a militaria dealer I knew in Williamsburg, Virginia gave me the most reliable but impractical advice... "If you want a guarantee that it's absolutely genuine, you get it from the guys who wore it or the guys who got it off the guys who wore it." So true... And sadly the cycle will always continue to repeat itself regarding provenance and proof... Soon it will be the brig backs from the Korean War, then Vietnam and of course in 50 years it will be the War on Terror and the Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan... Leigh
S.ChrisKelly Posted August 8 #23 Posted August 8 Mea culpa for enabling this thread to "take on a life of its own". {One final thought... No mention of the Persian Gulf War? The USA's last decisive victory since 1945? No? Again, mea culpa.}
Mr.Jerry Posted August 8 #24 Posted August 8 Not to re-hijack the thread, but we used to have a guy that would sell fake German things at gun shows around here. He was a WWII vet, and would tell anyone who asked, (but what he didn't say was that he was a Navy guy who served in the Pacific.) He would just casually walk around with a bogus German dagger or two in his belt until some unsuspecting collector would inquire..."oh this old thing? you'd buy that?" as he set the hook...
S.ChrisKelly Posted August 8 #25 Posted August 8 Post #24... Actually, "Mr. Jerry", I'm glad you did. I've wanted to ask this question for a while, and didn't know where to put it... Does anyone remember a militaria business in Williamsburg, Virginia called "Old Veterans Medals"? I think the guy who ran it was Vernon {his first name}. His shop was at a street address, 13&1/2 something... I remember he had a U.S.A. Army version of the Medal of Honor in a frame on the wall in his shop. I think it was genuine, and it was on display, not for sale. He sold British, French, German and older U.S.A. medals and badges. This was sometime, 1981 ~ 1983.
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