aussierob Posted August 31 #1 Posted August 31 Here are my SS FORKS and SS Silver goblets I recently purchased from a well known Collector here in Australia who is retiring , so im trying to get as much of the hundreds of items he has before they go.. my collection is more the SS personal stuff , Goblets, Silver and Pewter Trays and stuff and some of the stuff from Wewelsburg Ss Castle. Will update as I get them. It ain't cheap. Some more pics Couple more. The SS Stickpin as well. Also have the usual IRON CROSS and MERIT BADGE and various SS buckles but like the personal elaborate stuff more.. Hallmarks on the FORKS
Marshallj Posted August 31 #2 Posted August 31 Not a fan. Especially of the goblets. Very amateurish.
aussierob Posted August 31 Author #3 Posted August 31 That's cool.. they are real,come from a good Maker and they are SS and im more than happy with that. To me sometimes the imperfections can make the item perfect..
Rakkasan187 Posted August 31 #4 Posted August 31 Aussierob, Welcome to the forum, I will echo what Marshallj has stated about the quality of the items, and I have to ask this question. Do you have any documented evidence of these being used or made during the period? What references are you referring to regarding tableware and utensils of the Third Reich? Are you basing your comments on the fact that an old time Collector is selling off their stuff and you are believing that what he is selling is pre-May 1945 authentic? You said in your welcome post that you just started collecting 3 months ago... In that time frame what reference material have you found that supports what you are buying? Do you have any of the period original Wellner Catalogs on Third Reich Silver products or Bruckman, Gebruder Hepp, WMF, Art Krupp Berndhof? What makers mark is stamped on the forks? Which maker is on the goblet/chalice? Knowing this information will either confirm or deny that those firms actually did produce such items. The vary large majority of Third Reich tableware did not have shields or other items attached or added to the utensils, it was either engraved or stamped, and again photographic evidence from the period pre-May 1945 would be incredibly helpful. You have to ask yourself, would an organization such as the SS actually take pride and acceptance of something so poorly engraved to use at a function where Hitler, Himmler or some other high-ranking officials be present? I think not and to believe that they would produce such poor-quality items is beyond imaginable. No one likes to hear that the items they purchase are fake/fantasy/reproduction etc. but the sad reality is that many will not listen to advice from collectors who have been collecting for many years and can tell that an item is not period authentic. Documented evidence of such items and provenance go hand in hand when collecting items of such controversy. There are numerous books on TR silverware that you may want to consider looking into. Look for the author James A. Yannes. He has written four volumes on 3rd Reich Cutlery and Tableware. One of the books he wrote discusses Monograms, Logos, Maker's Marks, etc. Just trying to save yourself some money and heartache down the road as you discover items sold to you are not always what they appear to be. Buy the item, not the story is sage advice especially when collecting items from the Third Reich. I was lucky that I started to collect Third Reich items over 50 years ago from WW2 Veterans that I grew up around in the 60s and they had closets full of things they would give to the neighborhood kids: helmets, daggers, insignia, uniforms, flags, armbands etc. We had very little doubts that the items were not authentic. It is not like today where unfortunately a lot of the items have to be scrutinized and looked at with a suspicious and cautious eye. So don't take offense if members here are trying to help you and tell you that the items are not authentic or have serious questions on their authenticity. You don't want to be stuck with a bunch of fake items so you? My advice is to do research, ask lots of questions and be prepared to accept that an item may not be original, no matter how hard you wish it to be... I wish you luck in your collecting endeavors Best regards Leigh
Preppy Picker Posted September 1 #5 Posted September 1 I’ve owned several pieces of SS flatware from vets and the insignia was always engraved with the unit designation into the handle. I’ve never seen this type with a shield affixed to the handle.
Preppy Picker Posted September 1 #6 Posted September 1 Take pictures of the collection and post them here and we can vet it for you.
aussierob Posted September 1 Author #7 Posted September 1 22 hours ago, Rakkasan187 said: Aussierob, Welcome to the forum, I will echo what Marshallj has stated about the quality of the items, and I have to ask this question. Do you have any documented evidence of these being used or made during the period? What references are you referring to regarding tableware and utensils of the Third Reich? Are you basing your comments on the fact that an old time Collector is selling off their stuff and you are believing that what he is selling is pre-May 1945 authentic? You said in your welcome post that you just started collecting 3 months ago... In that time frame what reference material have you found that supports what you are buying? Do you have any of the period original Wellner Catalogs on Third Reich Silver products or Bruckman, Gebruder Hepp, WMF, Art Krupp Berndhof? What makers mark is stamped on the forks? Which maker is on the goblet/chalice? Knowing this information will either confirm or deny that those firms actually did produce such items. The vary large majority of Third Reich tableware did not have shields or other items attached or added to the utensils, it was either engraved or stamped, and again photographic evidence from the period pre-May 1945 would be incredibly helpful. You have to ask yourself, would an organization such as the SS actually take pride and acceptance of something so poorly engraved to use at a function where Hitler, Himmler or some other high-ranking officials be present? I think not and to believe that they would produce such poor-quality items is beyond imaginable. No one likes to hear that the items they purchase are fake/fantasy/reproduction etc. but the sad reality is that many will not listen to advice from collectors who have been collecting for many years and can tell that an item is not period authentic. Documented evidence of such items and provenance go hand in hand when collecting items of such controversy. There are numerous books on TR silverware that you may want to consider looking into. Look for the author James A. Yannes. He has written four volumes on 3rd Reich Cutlery and Tableware. One of the books he wrote discusses Monograms, Logos, Maker's Marks, etc. Just trying to save yourself some money and heartache down the road as you discover items sold to you are not always what they appear to be. Buy the item, not the story is sage advice especially when collecting items from the Third Reich. I was lucky that I started to collect Third Reich items over 50 years ago from WW2 Veterans that I grew up around in the 60s and they had closets full of things they would give to the neighborhood kids: helmets, daggers, insignia, uniforms, flags, armbands etc. We had very little doubts that the items were not authentic. It is not like today where unfortunately a lot of the items have to be scrutinized and looked at with a suspicious and cautious eye. So don't take offense if members here are trying to help you and tell you that the items are not authentic or have serious questions on their authenticity. You don't want to be stuck with a bunch of fake items so you? My advice is to do research, ask lots of questions and be prepared to accept that an item may not be original, no matter how hard you wish it to be... I wish you luck in your collecting endeavors Best regards Leigh Love and appreciate the advice and knowledge thank you. The Forks makers mark and goblets mark as attached. Also in above original post pics. Also a set of knives , desert or otherwise I don't know. I'm not that cultured.
Rakkasan187 Posted September 2 #8 Posted September 2 Rob, Thank you for the additional information and images. Based on what I am seeing on both the forks and the goblets/chalice... The makers marks appear to be original on the forks however, the SS rune shield was done post war in an attempt to enhance both items and to make them more "believable" to someone who is not versed in Silverware, Cutlery and other items of the Third Reich. I am sorry to say that these are all post war fantasy items that are worth no value. The chalice mark of Rossdeutscher & Reisig with the two R's (forward and Reverse) also appears to be fake as the firm was known to make silver flatware and not chalices or other silver items. It also appears that the firm did not have any history of producing items during the Third Reich period. The image that you sent of the makers mark confirms that it made silverware... The last set of SS knives are also fake/fantasy. Why would a maker place the SS runes on the blade portion of the knife? No logical reason at all. Don't waste your money. Sadly, immediately after the war there were many Entrepreneuring individuals who sought to take advantage of the excess parts and pieces of daggers, swords, medals, decorations etc, and they started to put parts daggers together and sold them to unknowing GIs. Even the GIs themselves were going into the shops and warehouses finding the stock and putting daggers and other items together. This was obviously observed by many to include Germans who were trying to get back on their feet and rebuild their country, so they too started to see profit in the items. So why not get a bunch of blank silverware sets and start stamping SS runes and AH and all kinds of other things on them to sell to the GIs.. There were some well-known Americans who bought large amounts of what was left in the warehouses and shipped the items home, and they made parts daggers here in the US and they made a very lucrative business for many years selling fake and parts daggers. Look up an individual by the name of Major James Atwood and you will find out some very shocking information. On this forum use the search engine and you can type in the information below and read some very interesting information. James “Jim” Atwood - BOOK REPORTS - World Militaria Forum Another well-known con-man in the collecting arena was a man by the name of Charles Snyder. Snyder had a store in the US for many years Snyders Treasures which was full of reproduction and fantasy items, he went for some of the higher end Hitler and Goering items and although some of the items were original, he saw that money could also be had with fake items, and he lured the uneducated in with hugely made-up fantasy stories that sounded convincing to again the uneducated and gullible. So many of the items from the Third Reich have been copied and faked over the years that solid provenance and proof through actual wartime images is one of the ways that can be used to verify authenticity. What the fakers failed to realize that now some of the actual documents and records from the period are surfacing and within the pages of those documents lie the many questions that collectors have been asking since the end of the war. I stand by what I previously said about the items all being fantasy and fake. The small SS stickpin is also of poor quality and again without proof something like this was made I would not be putting any money on it. Now, were some things made by individual units? Quite possibly yes, but not on the scale of such enormity that there would have been mass produced items. These items would be very rare as well as with lack of provenance and evidence I would also remain very skeptical before I would spend large amount of money on something I was not sure of. The dealer that you are buying these items from... Does this person offer a money back guarantee? A reputable dealer would offer this and would offer it for life, not just for two weeks and then no hope of getting money back. In some cases, it takes more than two weeks to get an item in the mail as well as doing thoughtful and scholarly research if there are suspicions of it being fake. The next problem would be convincing the dealer their items were fake. No one wants to admit they are wrong but without proof how do they respond... Just my thoughts again on these items. I will continue to research the items you PMd me about, but I will tell you now that all those items are too fake/fantasy items Best regards Leigh
jmd62 Posted September 2 #9 Posted September 2 2 hours ago, Rakkasan187 said: Rob, Thank you for the additional information and images. Based on what I am seeing on both the forks and the goblets/chalice... The makers marks appear to be original on the forks however, the SS rune shield was done post war in an attempt to enhance both items and to make them more "believable" to someone who is not versed in Silverware, Cutlery and other items of the Third Reich. I am sorry to say that these are all post war fantasy items that are worth no value. The chalice mark of Rossdeutscher & Reisig with the two R's (forward and Reverse) also appears to be fake as the firm was known to make silver flatware and not chalices or other silver items. It also appears that the firm did not have any history of producing items during the Third Reich period. The image that you sent of the makers mark confirms that it made silverware... The last set of SS knives are also fake/fantasy. Why would a maker place the SS runes on the blade portion of the knife? No logical reason at all. Don't waste your money. Sadly, immediately after the war there were many Entrepreneuring individuals who sought to take advantage of the excess parts and pieces of daggers, swords, medals, decorations etc, and they started to put parts daggers together and sold them to unknowing GIs. Even the GIs themselves were going into the shops and warehouses finding the stock and putting daggers and other items together. This was obviously observed by many to include Germans who were trying to get back on their feet and rebuild their country, so they too started to see profit in the items. So why not get a bunch of blank silverware sets and start stamping SS runes and AH and all kinds of other things on them to sell to the GIs.. There were some well-known Americans who bought large amounts of what was left in the warehouses and shipped the items home, and they made parts daggers here in the US and they made a very lucrative business for many years selling fake and parts daggers. Look up an individual by the name of Major James Atwood and you will find out some very shocking information. On this forum use the search engine and you can type in the information below and read some very interesting information. James “Jim” Atwood - BOOK REPORTS - World Militaria Forum Another well-known con-man in the collecting arena was a man by the name of Charles Snyder. Snyder had a store in the US for many years Snyders Treasures which was full of reproduction and fantasy items, he went for some of the higher end Hitler and Goering items and although some of the items were original, he saw that money could also be had with fake items, and he lured the uneducated in with hugely made-up fantasy stories that sounded convincing to again the uneducated and gullible. So many of the items from the Third Reich have been copied and faked over the years that solid provenance and proof through actual wartime images is one of the ways that can be used to verify authenticity. What the fakers failed to realize that now some of the actual documents and records from the period are surfacing and within the pages of those documents lie the many questions that collectors have been asking since the end of the war. I stand by what I previously said about the items all being fantasy and fake. The small SS stickpin is also of poor quality and again without proof something like this was made I would not be putting any money on it. Now, were some things made by individual units? Quite possibly yes, but not on the scale of such enormity that there would have been mass produced items. These items would be very rare as well as with lack of provenance and evidence I would also remain very skeptical before I would spend large amount of money on something I was not sure of. The dealer that you are buying these items from... Does this person offer a money back guarantee? A reputable dealer would offer this and would offer it for life, not just for two weeks and then no hope of getting money back. In some cases, it takes more than two weeks to get an item in the mail as well as doing thoughtful and scholarly research if there are suspicions of it being fake. The next problem would be convincing the dealer their items were fake. No one wants to admit they are wrong but without proof how do they respond... Just my thoughts again on these items. I will continue to research the items you PMd me about, but I will tell you now that all those items are too fake/fantasy items Best regards Leigh Very well written, excellent information and insight Leigh!
Rakkasan187 Posted September 2 #10 Posted September 2 jmd62, Appreciate the feedback. As a collector from the "old days" I lost money on items that were thought to be original and quite convincing but as I have learned (the hard way) with very little mentorship from collectors who saw a young gullible kid and took advantage of that naiveness, many of these fantasy items were just that, fantasy. It was a time when I trusted the words of dealers but learned a hard lesson from not knowing what I was getting into without references and research.... It wasn't until later in my collecting that I found a very trusted mentor who educated me and provided me with insight and knowledge... with that said, I put my resentment aside and If I can pass some knowledge and information down to the next generation before they waste their money then I have accomplished something. Best regards Leigh
jmd62 Posted September 2 #11 Posted September 2 Hey Leigh, This all reminds me of what I thought was my first legit TR purchase, in Germany of all places, back in 1990. I ran across an antique store with some WW1 items in the window so I thought I would pop in and see if there was anything from WW2. The owner was hesitant at first, then invited me back to a room which was full of TR uniforms, helmets, the works, it was insane. I was there with my wife and kids on a strict budget so the only thing I could afford was what he described as an HJ pocket knife for $70, which back then was a lot, at least to me. I was stoked until I discovered a couple of years later it was a common fantasy piece. I learned a good lesson, research, research and research. On a positive note, my younger son loves it and views it as a souvenir from our trip and to him, a funny moment at that Thanks, James
Rakkasan187 Posted September 2 #12 Posted September 2 James, Thank you for sharing that with us here. The hard lessons we learned along the way have made me at least pay more attention to the details and history of each item. And you said it... Research, research, research... Knowledge is power.. Best Leigh
Mr.Jerry Posted September 3 #13 Posted September 3 Sadly many of these "Engraved" items are easy for even talent-less counterfeiters to reproduce- you find an older antique metal item, you solder on a metal eagle or engrave something and voila: "Hitler's pencil box". There was a flea market dealer in Florida that was giving one of my friends the screwgie with all kinds of this stuff - salvers, cigarette boxes, etc. and everything was over the top- eagles, runes, skulls, and swastikas all over. Everything was LAH or Totenkopf, never a "3rd. Komp. Erzatz Supply Bn." and of course each piece had a story- all BS of course. Did they have some stuff like this- sure. but 99.9% of it you see is bogus.
Rakkasan187 Posted September 4 #14 Posted September 4 I wanted to share something regarding the unscrupulous and devious minds of those who sought profit and greed. This ties in with the above posted items (although these items are SS related in the post), it merits posting this information about some of those early profiteers that have muddied the waters for years and their items are still being bought. Nothing was untouched, helmets, daggers, silverware items,,, as long as there was profit everything was up for scams. Most of the older generation collectors may remember the toilet paper scams and the Eva Braun underwear topics from a time back...But I recall even earlier than this in the early 80s the HITLER DIARIES that were allegedly found only to discover they were fake.... Remember those guys??? Sadly the cycle continues with the next generation and unfortunately the folks that are making reproductions and copies are getting better at their skills, so even now more then ever one must be very cautious when it comes to these items... Anyway, if anyone is interested in getting into the weeds and looking at how some of these folks infiltrated the business with fake and fantasy garbage, take a look at the link I posted on another forum (Yes I am a member there as well) and just like this forum here I feel a obligation to educate and inform those members interested in starting to collect Third Reich items... There is still plenty of authentic items available, but I can't emphasize enough that research and reference materials (books in addition to the internet will save a lot of money and heartache)... https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/book-discussions-reviews/jim-atwood-biography-kenneth-alford-803769-2/ Ken Alford has a few other books out there that discusses the taking of War Treasures after the war, some are interesting to read, but take some of what has been said at face value as well... Leigh
jmd62 Posted September 4 #15 Posted September 4 First of all, sign me up for the Eva Braun underwear.. Seriously, that's an excellence response above Leigh and definitely the Jim Atwood story is a must read, especially for collectors of those TR areas he tampered with. I didn't know about the helmets though, interesting. What a scumbag.
Rakkasan187 Posted September 4 #16 Posted September 4 James, The biggest shock with the helmets was the paining of the decals and making them look like actual helmet transfers... And I want to emphasize that this information that is being shared is for the benefit of both new and old collectors to remind us all that these type of things have existed and will continue to exist until we as a collective group of militaria collectors can come together with our combined resources to battle the fakes and hold those accountable that sell fake items and fantasy items and reproductions willingly as original items without factual data that we will find the truth and we will hold those responsible accountable... There is still more than enough period original items out there for everyone to enjoy and there always will be as the collectors of the days gone past get older (myself included) and we start to part with our items.... There are some very knowledgeable folks on this forum (as well as the other forums) who are more than happy to assist and provide feedback. One reason I always suggest (and others have suggested as well) to post good clear images of potential purchases before spending the money.. Our advice is free but the items you purchase that may be fake/fantasy are a hard expensive lessons... Best regards all... Leigh
Preppy Picker Posted September 4 #18 Posted September 4 Unfortunately in this hobby it’s just up to us ourselves to know real from unreal so we need to educate ourselves (sometimes very hard to do but of the upmost) get pertinent books, go to shows, establish relationships and minus that is the forum. It’s up to me to know what it is I’m looking for but I do use the forum as well. Dont let this experience stop you and I look forward to helping.
Rakkasan187 Posted September 5 #19 Posted September 5 Rob, Apologies for taking over your thread the way we did. We just wanted to give you some more things to think about regarding the way that scammers have been taking advantage over the years by mass producing fantasy items. We hope that you continue to post items, and hope that you don't take our criticisms of the items personally. I just hate to see folks wasting hard earned money on items of non-historic significance and provenance. Clearly our intent is to educate and inform and not discourage... We are all here to help you along the way.. Best regards Leigh
aussierob Posted September 5 Author #20 Posted September 5 51 minutes ago, Rakkasan187 said: Rob, Apologies for taking over your thread the way we did. We just wanted to give you some more things to think about regarding the way that scammers have been taking advantage over the years by mass producing fantasy items. We hope that you continue to post items, and hope that you don't take our criticisms of the items personally. I just hate to see folks wasting hard earned money on items of non-historic significance and provenance. Clearly our intent is to educate and inform and not discourage... We are all here to help you along the way.. Best regards Leigh Hi Leigh. No , no problem at all. I do fully appreciate all your information and knowledge both here and in the personal messages i sent. Just been a hell week with work, so flat out barely had time to scratch early starts and late finishes havnt left much time for the internet... I appreciate all the help I cN get with this stuff. . I'll be floating around here for sure. Learning heaps, going to purchase one of tbe books you recommended too.. Thanks heaps. Rob. 😃
Rakkasan187 Posted September 5 #21 Posted September 5 Rob, If you have any questions please feel free to PM me. More than happy to help.. Best regards Leigh
River Rat1 Posted December 1 #22 Posted December 1 I don't collect this type of stuff. But I collect mainly military timepieces but also collect other stuff we all when new to collecting sometimes get burnt. I once bought a British issued CYMA issued WWW WW2 era wristwatch some 20 years ago dam thing looked real most WWW dirty dozen watches all have 15 jewel movements the fake did not, I learned that later and a few other things. Like you I posted that watch at another forum were members collect military timepieces and was told just like you I got took. I was able to get my money back and learned from that mistake. Sounds like you just got them, so I hope you were lucky to get your money back.
Marshallj Posted December 2 #23 Posted December 2 Sadly fraud continues in the collecting of SS items. Recently the owner of BeVo Militaria, Sander van Wassenhore, publicly admitted to selling fake consigned SS items on his website. Sander claims to have not known these items were bad but others speculate that he was in on it from the start. He sold thousands of dollars worth of bogus high end tunics that fooled even experienced collectors. Google Bevo Militaria fraud to learn more.
Rakkasan187 Posted December 2 #24 Posted December 2 One has to wonder if Sander's conscience got the best of him and why now all of sudden it mattered to him to come clean.. Thanks for adding this to the conversation Marshallj... Whenever and wherever there is money to be made there will be cheaters, liars, swindlers and profiteers.. Be on guard folks and know what you are collecting.. Best regards Leigh
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