2nd pattern m40 overseas cap. I have not found a single period photo with the totenkopf sewed on square like this. It's boarder is always sewed around the skull. Could it be an original patch that was sewed on later or just a fake? 

 

I have found an image in a book of a camo field cap that was sewn on square like this. There is also a period photo.

 

The thread that sewed the patch to my example of an overseas cap is black on the front of the patch, but the thread that comes out the other side on the back holding it on is closer to the color of the cap. Inside the cap is marked size 60, but no manufacturer.

 

Under a black light there is no shine on any part of the cap. Even the white parts of the insignia are completely dull under a black light.

 

It seems like someone may have sewed original insignia on an original/reproduction cap later on.

 

From the images of totenkopf that I have looked at online it seems like there are a few different variants so it's hard to compare with others without some more experience.

Finding a period photo with this type of application is going to be pretty difficult. The insignia is definitely original and I like the application. I'm not a cap collector so I cant authenticate it but if it was confirmed real I'd be comfortable with it. 

 

Looks like IMA had a similar example that apparently came from a vet, but that doesn't mean anything anymore. 

Thanks for the reply.

 

Actually the cap in the photo that you posted is the cap that I purchased.

 

I didn't really plan on saying where I got it, but any conclusions that anyone comes to on this forum are just an opinion and nothing more. This is all just a learning process. 

 

I've only been able to find one example of an SS hat that has the totenkopf sewed on square like this and it was a camo field cap not an overseas cap, but that shows that it had been done.

 

The camo field cap in the book is the same scenario. Every other image that I have found has the boarder sewed around the skull not a square. I haven't looked to hard though. Just a quick Google image search.

 

I wonder if it's possible that from time to time a soldier might have had a patch sewed on at a shop. Like if they lost their hat and had to get a new one.

 

That happened to me a couple times when I was in the service with my beret. I'd have to buy a beret and and pin our battalion crest on it.

 

It's possible that the the shop would just sew it on square.

 

I'm pretty sure that the ones sewed around the skull are done at the factory.

 

Or maybe right at the end of the war they just sewed them square to save time.

 

I don't know. Just a thought.

 

I'm sure somebody on here knows more about this.

 

The eagle is only sewed to the outer layer. So it seems like that was done at the factory or someone removed the inner layer of fabric and then resewed it.

 

The totenkopf is sewed to the outer flap so this would not be necessary.  It doesn't look like there had been a different shaped patch there before this one when you open the flap and look at the back.

 

 

 

I think the stitching is suspect. I am not a German expert, but I would be dubious about this cap.

Thanks for the input. 

 

What about the stitching? The stitching pattern or the thread?

9 hours ago, dcbrown said:

I think the stitching is suspect. I am not a German expert, but I would be dubious about this cap.

 

I noticed the stitching as well.  I think what dcbrown is talking about is the unevenness of the stitching around the side flaps of the cap.  Notice the wobbly lines of stitching around the edges of the cloth.  It is particularly evident where you show it on the interior of the cap where the lines of stitching are not parallel.  This is not usually seen and is a red flag for me.  While it does not condemn the cap by itself it is odd.  The insignia sewing is unusual as well and for me is another red flag.  Three strikes (red flags) and you are out for me so I am not particularly a fan of this construction. It might be helpful for you to hold the cap up to the light to see if you can see stitch holes from any previous insignia that may have been on the cap.

 

There is also a sticky on German stitchery that may be helpful.  

 

 

I did look for look for signs of previous insinga, but couldn't see any. I'll take a second look with a magnifying glass.

 

I'll definitely take a look at that sticky too.

 

Thanks Sarge, That is actually very helpful. 

 

Sarge you mentioned the stitching not being even.

 

What about the fact that the patch is sewn on square in the first place as apposed to sewn around the boarder of the totenkopf? Do you have an opinion on that?

The Feuerwehr Polizei sewed their eagle Police insignia on the front and sides of their soft caps using a trapezoidal fold  but not square.  So, the top of their "squared" insignia backing was wider than the bottom.  This was for the smaller Bevo style insignia.  The W-SS did use a larger trapezoid fold for their one-piece eagle/skull Bevo insignia but I have only seen that on M-43 style caps and not on Schiffchen. 

 

I would be more accepting of this kind of stitching and placement if it were on a private purchase style police, civil, or military soft cap but not on a W-SS cap where the RZM controlled quality and conformity.   The problem is that it might be right as rain but will be a hard sell if you wish to move it along at some point.

 

 

The only time I’ve ever seen this done was on a fake officers overseas cap with a fake skull.

 

The fake I’m talking about shows up from time to time and they are always the same squared off skull.

 

Thanks guys

 

Well I guess for now I'm leaning towards it's an original insignia (any comments on the insignia themselves are welcome) on an original/Reproduction cap that somebody stitched on post-war and didn't stitch it on properly or possibly stitched on durring the war but not in the factory due to the fact that the stitching is done a little sloppy. 

 

The thread on the back side of the flap does seem to be a close match to the thread used in the actual cap. It's a similar color if not a match. It's hard to tell for sure right now because my magnifying glass is pretty scratched up and the stitching pattern is different between the insignia and the cap construction.

 

 

There are two colors of thread that were used in the construction of the cap. A darker thread closer to the color of the liner and a lighter thread color closer to the color of the cap itself.

 

 

 

I can't see any signs of an insignia having been replaced by the totenkopf when looking on the backside.

 

 

 

Like Ricky Nelson sang.... "You can't please everyone so you have to please yourself".  If you are comfortable with the cap that is all that matters.  

 

 

Something else you need to think of is if you have to sell it. How hard is it going to be to sell?

Thanks for the input guys.

 

I just want to be able to accurately describe this item. I realized that I couldn't find a single period photo of an overseas cap with the totenkopf sewed on square like this and that makes this cap suspect.

 

I know with WW2 German items there are a lot of fakes so it's always a risk. And I can live with that.

 

I figure that I should learn everything that I can from this item to help me know what to look for in the future.