Heer Sports Shirt Eagle Patch

[Bosley]

Hi All,

I recently got a blacklight and have been going through my modest collection that's been stored away for years. Most things reacted as expected, but there were a couple surprises in a few directions.

One item that I believed to be original was this Heer Sports Shirt Eagle Patch (1st Pattern?). I was surprised to see this glowing pretty brightly under blacklight.

Thoughts on this piece? Is this possibly due to washing, or could this indeed be a fake? It looks pretty close to originals I see online. I guess the only thing that sticks out to my untrained eye is the material itself, in the way that it has these stitching lines up and down the whole thing. Like a checkerboard. I haven't seen that in other examples.

I've tried to include a few photos that show the blacklight. In one photo you'll see it up against a known period US Medic armband that does not glow at all, just for reference. In the other blacklight photos I've tried to show what looks to me like a little bit of a splotchy aspect to the glow. The whole thing is glowing for sure, but when you look closely, it kind of looks like it's not exactly evenly dispersed. Possible signs of a wash?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Preppy Picker]

Is there any money in reproducing these? I can’t get rid of them.

[Bosley]

Even if it's not valuable, I'm still interested in ascertaining whether it's authentic.  My collection is modest, but I take pride in having original pieces.  And this one is definitely glowing under blacklight, which I was not expecting.

 

What price are you asking for them?  If you have some different variations of these and are trying to get rid of them, I may be interested.  Feel free to PM me.

[Preppy Picker]

I’ve had Luftwaffe and army ones. Ive avoided them for years now. None for sale

[jmd62]

I'm no expert on these, but I don't see a problem with your eagle. As far as black lights go, it may have been cleaned which would account for any glow. 

[Rakkasan187]

Sadly, these emblems are reproduced, Heer, Luftwaffe, SS..

 

https://www.warstuff.com/product/german-ww2-heer-m35-sport-vest-shirt

 

Yours looks to be a Type I Sports Shirt Eagle. I don't see any issues with yours.

 

Leigh 

 

[Bosley]

Thanks so much, jmd62 and Leigh.

 

In general, are there no clues really to distinguish between a cloth that glows under blacklight and one that's only glowing because it's been washed?  I'd imagine there would be less uniformity for one that's only glowing due to washing, but I really have no idea.

 

Also, what exactly does Type 1 refer to?  Looking it up online, I think I see my version vs another one with the more detailed eagle head.  Is that the Type I vs Type II, or is there more to it than that?  I'm struggling to find anything online that explains it, and I would be interested to know things like when the switch happened from one to the other.

 

Thanks, just always trying to learn where possible. 

[Rakkasan187]

Bosley,

 

The classification of the types of Eagles was done by collectors in order to determine the differences in early versions vs newer. It is like this for nearly all variations of Third Reich items, especially makers of badges and other insignia from the various firms.  

 

You will be able to see spotty areas where the chemicals may have "soaked" into the cloth more (seams, stitch lines etc) vs an entire synthetic made item, the whole item will/should glow evenly.. Years of study and examination of variations also helps.

 

The Blacklight is only one of the many tools that can be used for recognition and in some cases the blacklight has had negatives thoughts due to the fact that some period items such as your shirt emblem will glow and automatically this is thrown into the repro pile. As mentioned, phosphorescent chemical was used in detergents and soaps so the glow will be there. Other tests include, (funny as it may sound) the smell test and a thread burn test is also a method used to determine the type of thread. Synthetic material will burn into a hard blackish ball while cotton thread will turn to ash and not ball up. Obviously when doing a burn test you want to cut a small piece of the loose thread from the item rather than risk catching the whole item on fire...(It has happened before with some folks).. 

 

The weave of the pattern on medal ribbons can also be determined after close examination whether the material is post war or not. I have a few West Wall medals that were original but the ribbon that was with it was post war, as it glowed very brightly under blacklight as well as the weave pattern was post war. So the combination of a few tests can help confirm authenticity as well as reference books and talking to others..

 

There is a remarkable two volume set of books that discusses Sports in the Third Reich:   "Sport and the Third Reich: History, Uniforms, Insignia and Awards by Rob Newbrough. See the images attached below. In those books you will find the different variations of the sports shirts emblems and a whole compliment of other data. The books are a little pricey but you may be able to shop around and find them at a used book site.

 

I can't emphasize the importance of reference books and other materials when studying and collecting items from the Third Reich. In my opinion they must go hand in hand when collecting in order to prevent making costly mistakes by purchasing fakes outright. I have well over 10,000 reference books and in itself many of these references are worth more than the medals and other decorations I have from the Third Reich but in order to fully understand the decoration, patch, insignia, etc I have immersed myself into the research of each item. 

 

And of course never be afraid to reach out to the members here and on other forums. There are some very knowledgeable folks on here and the other forums who will be happy to assist you.

 

I have attached some images of one of the Type II insignia that I have in my collection. You can see the details of the eagles head are more defined than your Type I.

 

Hope this helps

 

Best regards, Happy Holidays

 

Leigh 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bosley]

Leigh, thank you for this incredible post!  A wealth of information!

 

 

12 hours ago, Rakkasan187 said:

 

You will be able to see spotty areas where the chemicals may have "soaked" into the cloth more (seams, stitch lines etc) vs an entire synthetic made item, the whole item will/should glow evenly.

 

This is what I was referring to in my initial post, and also what I try to show with those last two blacklight pictures.  It's probably really hard to ascertain anything from these, but I think you can see a little evidence of what you are describing above.  In the second to last photo I'm trying to show in the bottom left plain cloth part how it looks like the creases have absorbed more.  And in the last photo if you look around some of the creases under the left wing, I think you can see the same.  To me it just doesn't look like the even glow of a truly synthetic item.

 

 

On 12/24/2023 at 11:24 AM, Rakkasan187 said:

 

I can't emphasize the importance of reference books and other materials when studying and collecting items from the Third Reich. In my opinion they must go hand in hand when collecting in order to prevent making costly mistakes by purchasing fakes outright. I have well over 10,000 reference books and in itself many of these references are worth more than the medals and other decorations I have from the Third Reich but in order to fully understand the decoration, patch, insignia, etc I have immersed myself into the research of each item. 

 

Wow, that is incredible!  You are a true scholar!  I'll have to reach out to you separately at some point soon for some advice on good first reference books, because it is an area where I'm completely ignorant.  I'll refrain from doing it here to not get off topic in my own thread.

 

If it's not too much trouble it would be so awesome if you were able to post the page(s) from "Sport and the Third Reich" that show these particular Heer sport shirt patches.  I think that would seal the deal for this being the definite thread on this specific item.

 

Does the reference state when each of the Eagle Types were introduced for this patch?  Or were they both used for essentially the entire span of the Third Reich?

 

Also one last "dumb" question.  Did the patches come from the factory in this rectangular form, and then they would be patched onto shirts with the excess material cut off?  Or are these pieces that have actually been cut from shirts where they were already applied?  (It can't be that, right?)

 

I really can't express how helpful your above post was for someone in my position, or how grateful I am for your help.

 

Thank you,

 

-Bosley

 

[Rakkasan187]

Bosley,

 

I have attached some of the images from two sources of reference material and I want to ensure that both authors are credited for their works. 

 

The first images come from the 2 Volume set: Sport and the Third Reich, History, Uniforms, Insignia and Awards by R. Newbrough

 

As we have discussed why some of the cloth items glow, you will see in the author's own words the explanation of the UV and black lighting and the outcome of introducing chemicals and bleaches to an otherwise clean piece of fabric. It would only make sense that some of these insignia will glow after being washed, or else one could presume that non-glowing sports shirts and their insignia were never washed by the Soldier, which would make for some rather stinky clothes...

 

There is also information from one contributor to the Newbrough books, a Raymond Doyle, who explains the manufacturing of Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht insignia was produced on large rolls or strips which were then sent to the garment manufacturers for application to the shirts. The excess cloth would have been removed and the insignia sewn to the shirt, hence the reason for some of the different shapes you may see, (IE, Luftwaffe would be a triangular shape and the Wehrmacht would be the half-moon shape insignia on the shirts. 

 

The last information regarding the 1st and 2nd Pattern Eagles comes from the reference book: Uniforms and Traditions of the German Army 1933-1945 Volume 2.  By John R. Angolia and Adolf Schlicht. Prior to the Type I and II Eagles, the German Army used a Troop Sports Badge Insignia. This insignia was later abolished in 1935 and it was replaced with the Armed Forces Sport Badge, which had two know variants, the Type I Eagle (yours that was posted and the Type II, which I had posted). 

 

As you can see with some the images, there were sports shirt insignia for nearly all the Organizations within the Third Reich: Army, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, SS, Hitler Youth, BDM, RAD, DAF, SA, Police and more.  These insignia are still readily available due to the vast quantities produced and the way they were manufactured on large rolls or strips. Many intact rolls were found in warehouses by Soldiers and were cut off the rolls or brought home intact and later separated out.

 

If you need any other information, please don't hesitate to reach out.

 

Best regards

 

Leigh 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bosley]

Incredible, Leigh!  Thank you so much.  This has been so helpful to me, and I'm sure it will help plenty of individuals in the future that are trying to learn about these.

 

-Bosley

[Rakkasan187]

Bosley,

 

You are most welcome.. I do have to make one correction. I was looking at my sports shirt insignia collection and I realized that the Sports Eagle that I posted is actually a Type II Kriegsmarine Sports shirt emblem. Identical to the Heer (Army Eagle) but the thread is blue not black. My eyes are not as sharp as they used to be and the photo appeared to be black thread. The only difference in the Army and Navy versions of both Type 1 and II eagles is the thread color. 

 

I do apologize for the mixup... I do have an Army Type II Sports eagle but at the moment I am not sure which Rikker case it is in. Once I find it I will post the correct one.

 

Best regards

 

Leigh 

 

[Bosley]

No worries at all.  Yours really does look black in the picture, but I know color tone like that often doesn't show up correctly in photos.  For the record my Type I is definitely black, so mine is indeed a Heer example.

 

Thanks!

 

-Bosley